TODAY’S GUEST and I had been sitting having a cup of tea collectively not too long ago and speaking about guess what? Vegetation. What got here up fairly quick was how currently we each typically cringe on the outcomes to our on-line searches about one backyard subject or one other, which solely gave the impression to be getting worse within the age of AI, or on the misinformation we see on some viral social-media posts.
Ecologically centered backyard designer Rebecca McMackin and I wished to speak out loud right here with all of you about what trusted sources we go to many times, and about how we filter out a few of the unhelpful noise when in search of solutions to our backyard questions.
Rebecca is the creator of the month-to-month e-newsletter “Develop like Wild,” which now has a companion podcast model. Within the opening of a “TED Discuss” she gave, which has greater than 1.3 million views, she says of herself, “Full disclosure: I’m the nerdiest gardener you’re ever going to satisfy.”
Rebecca spent a decade as director of horticulture at Brooklyn Bridge Park, the place she managed 85 acres of numerous parkland organically and with a watch towards variety. And she or he extra not too long ago served arboretum curator at Woodlawn Cemetery within the Bronx. Her acclaimed backyard for Brooklyn Museum, which was planted in 2023, exhibits that ecological gardens can thrive even within the busiest areas, and she or he was a Harvard Loeb fellow in 2023 as properly.
Learn alongside as you take heed to the Aug. 25, 2025 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant under. You may subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
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Margaret Roach: Good to speak to you once more, Rebecca, even with out the cup of tea.
Rebecca McMackin: [Laughter.] At all times a pleasure, Margaret. I even have a cup of tea.
Margaret: Oh, O.Okay., cool. You didn’t provide me one.
Rebecca: I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
Margaret: So sure, so every of us in a method, in our personal method as a part of our job—your outdated job at Brooklyn Bridge Park, our jobs because the writing we do, the podcasting that we do, the instructing, the lecturing—a variety of elements of our jobs, our careers, are geared toward serving to folks discover solutions to their backyard questions and to be taught to backyard smarter. And I feel even once you had been at Brooklyn Bridge Park, you didn’t simply present new members of your group tips on how to do the hands-on work that you just wanted from them, however I feel you really taught them tips on how to discover info on-line as properly, didn’t you?
Rebecca: Completely. In order that was an enormous a part of the job, proper? Educating folks tips on how to be taught, tips on how to discover info. Over the 10-plus years I used to be there, I employed over 100 backyard workers, between seasonal gardeners and full-time gardeners and managers, and many others. And for every a kind of folks all at, as you possibly can think about, actually totally different ranges and their expertise and information of horticulture, all of them wanted to know tips on how to discover the solutions to their very own questions.
And I’m a bibliophile [laughter]. My library is actually problematically massive, and I like, love books, however I additionally acknowledge that that’s not the place particularly newer generations of gardeners are actually getting their info. And it’s extremely straightforward to seek out stuff on-line to only punch one thing into Google and picture that the knowledge that’s going to come back again goes to be the solutions to actually the questions of the universe.
However we discovered, and I feel many people discover, that once you do exactly Google one thing, what comes again is usually not really the knowledge that you just want. And once you have a look at the place persons are getting their backyard info from, 40 % of individuals charge the web as their predominant supply of data, and that’s coming from each YouTube and social media. And I’m involved about that as a result of after I go to YouTube and social media, a variety of the knowledge that I see is just not correct. Or it’s by actually enthusiastic, actually proficient communicators who possibly aren’t probably the most skilled gardeners on the planet.
And so I simply thought it will be actually useful, together with you, one of the crucial proficient researchers-
Margaret: Talking of nerds…
Rebecca: [Laughter.] …I do know; proficient, nerdy researchers of gardening—that we might assist folks assist folks once more, not discover the knowledge that we’re essentially on the lookout for, however tips on how to search for info on the web.
Margaret: So it’s like I scroll down the listing of outcomes, I’m trying to find tips on how to prune a rose or when to blah, blah, blah, when to sow such-and-such a seed, or no matter. And I scroll down the listing of outcomes, and I form of have this built-in mechanism from being a journalist, an old-school, traditional-form journalist for therefore a few years, so many many years, I’m form of a analysis mind. I filter and I’m like, no, that’s not useful resource; that’s not a trusted authority. I type of display screen issues.
And so I’m prejudiced towards if the URL has a .edu suffix, if it’s an educational establishment, for instance. That most likely goes to get further factors in my e-book, in comparison with simply someone’s weblog proper now. Perhaps that’s an oversimplification, however that’s one of many issues after I’m simply rapidly pre-screening. I’m on the lookout for authority in varied methods.
New info—I search for the dates on issues, as a result of boy, you probably have plant pests and illnesses… Like I used to be not too long ago writing about beech leaf illness, and that is one thing that’s altering by the minute, and there’s all this analysis happening. And even when you get one thing from a analysis report from 2024, not to mention 2023 or 2022, it’s not going to have the newest by any means insights or information or suggestions. And so I search for dates, issues like that. So I’ve a screening course of constructed into my mind. [Above: American beech leaves displaying symptoms of beech leaf disease: Bartlett Tree Experts photo.]
Rebecca: Yeah, I’ve realized a lot from you about tips on how to scan Google outcomes. I virtually by no means use Google, as a result of I simply think about it not super-trustworthy at this level. [Laughter.] I’ve on my browser a bookmark folder of all the sources that I am going to. Somewhat than form of depend on an algorithm to reply questions for me, I am going to very particular web sites. I search for very particular folks, establishments, universities, and people are the locations the place I am going, and I put in these questions that I’m making an attempt to reply.
I imply, I do typically check out, like I bear in mind my son a few weeks in the past wouldn’t consider that Luna moths [below] don’t eat as adults, and I put it into Google, and the highest AI outcomes stated that the grownup Luna moth weight loss program was X, Y, Z. And so I really feel just like the web is type of crumbling proper now. We’re watching, with AI and all of the algorithms making an attempt to promote us issues, that info’s changing into much less and fewer dependable once you depend on these engines like google. And I actually do attempt to, after I can, give attention to sure people. It’s the identical method I get my information. I don’t simply Google issues. I discover the reporters who I actually like in an effort to take heed to what they voice.
Margaret: A trusted supply. So we’re going to begin to give some examples, and possibly we will type of undergo some totally different classes, however I’ll say that we’re going to undergo a bunch of issues, and I may give your listing of a few of these bookmarks [see bottom of the page] and my listing of a few of my sources that I frequently use, so all people doesn’t have to start out jotting like mad.
However yeah, so what instance; the place ought to we begin?
Rebecca: I feel one of many issues that in researching how folks get their info, the large shift even over the past 10 years is YouTube. Lots of people discover backyard info and watch backyard exhibits and attempt to reply questions on YouTube. And so I believed I might share just some of my favourite YouTube channels for locating actually, actually good info. So I actually love the Xerces Society channel.
Margaret: In order that’s for invertebrate conservation, so a variety of bugs and different invertebrates.
Rebecca: Precisely. And I’m going to come back at this from a really ecological perspective. You probably have questions on peonies, that’s going to be a special,
Margaret: Nicely, I’ve solutions for that, so I’ll allow them to know that [laughter]. Good, good, good.
Rebecca: Superior. So yeah, so Xerces Society is great. Positively has an insect bent, however they provide a variety of details about simply gardening typically for biodiversity.
Margaret: That’s a trusted useful resource, proper?
Rebecca: Precisely. Universities, nearly each college. I actually like Penn State and Cornell, their YouTube channels, they’ve incredible horticulture info, complete lectures from consultants, after which simply tips on how to water, tips on how to weed, simply actually fundamental stuff, to the newest info on leaping worms. So I actually suggest simply subscribing to these YouTube channels after which watching when one thing fascinating exhibits up. I additionally love organizations like Develop Native Mass, Develop Native Massachusetts. They’ve free seminars, free audio system, after which an archive on-line of actually, actually great lectures that you would be able to watch on the subjects as properly.
What are a few of your favorites, Margaret, for extra decorative gardening?
Margaret: Nicely, so with the decorative stuff, I imply, one place I’ll look if I’m delving into a brand new genus of vegetation or an outdated genus of vegetation, once more, just like the peonies you talked about, or orchids or regardless of the heck, ferns, no matter it’s, I would look and see if there’s a botanical society for that. So ceaselessly there would be the fern society web site, and it could be the American Fern Society or possibly the worldwide or no matter, or the Orchid Society or the Peony Society and so forth. There’s a number of these. Now a few of them don’t have a variety of content material on the web sites, however typically they’ve native chapters.
In the event you’re actually desirous to study ferns, otherwise you actually wished to study rock gardening, otherwise you actually wished to study no matter, you would possibly discover your native chapter, otherwise you would possibly at the least look it up after which contact the e-mail of the one who’s listed in your space, and discover out what sources they’ve, and if they’ve lectures such as you’re speaking about. You would possibly plug into, once more, trusted sources which might be much more native, as a result of with a variety of these items, native is necessary. [Below, Paeonia ostii detail.]
Rebecca: Completely. Yeah.
Margaret: So I’ve a listing on awaytogarden.com/sources that features a variety of these societies that through the years I’ve used, and once more, a few of them have tons of content material, like why does my peony not bloom, and the way deep to plant the peony and blah, blah, blah. It’d inform all that, or it may not on these kinds of web sites, however that’s one approach to go.
After which there’s locations like Missouri Botanical Backyard with its plant encyclopedia, its plant finder type of encyclopedia, the a part of its web site the place I can seek for a plant and I can examine the place does it come from and the way a lot soil moisture does it need, and what illnesses is it vulnerable to and the way tall does it get and what zone is it and issues like that. So I exploit that lots.
Rebecca: These plant finders, I really feel like there’s a lot know-how on the market now that basically makes gardening and ecological gardening, particularly, simply really easy. It’s unbelievable that you would be able to plug in your Zip code after which simply get a listing of vegetation that assist all the animals that reside round you. So these plant finders, and there’s all totally different ranges of complexity. Like Missouri Botanical Backyard is a really subtle one the place you possibly can say, I need a blue-blooming perennial for solar, and it’s bought to be 3 ft excessive. You may plug in all of this trivialities and it’ll provide you with what these vegetation are. It’s an unbelievable useful resource.
However there are some that when you’re simply getting began and also you simply really want concepts, there are some which might be just a bit bit simpler. I actually like Homegrown Nationwide Park; it has plant finder, the place they let you know slightly little bit of details about your ecoregion, what are the vegetation which might be of your ecoregion. And that’s not simply your hardiness zone, however considers geology and hydrology and all of these varied issues. And the vegetation that you just get from Homegrown Nationwide Park are fairly often keystone species. So these are a very powerful vegetation you possibly can plant in your land to assist the wildlife round you.
Margaret: Now, once you stated earlier than that on Missouri Botanical, you had been filtering, I’ve by no means achieved that there. I’ve achieved that on the Girl Chook Johnson Wildflower Heart…
Rebecca: Oh gosh, do I’ve them confused?
Margaret: Yeah, properly that’s O.Okay. as a result of I imply, the issue is we’re each considering in our heads of massive lists, however I’ve achieved that. I’ve achieved profile by profile. I’ve looked for a selected genus and species of plant on Missouri Botanical and gotten all of the details about that plant. However on the Girl Chook Johnson Wildflower Heart, down in Texas, on their web site, their encyclopedia, you can’t solely try this—search for a selected plant—however then you possibly can say what you had been speaking about: You need groundcovers which might be blue which might be 3 ft excessive and no matter. It’s superb. It’s wild. And to your zone, to your space, it’s incredible.
Rebecca: So I simply Googled it, however the MOBOT does have this.
Margaret: Cool, O.Okay. See, you’re turning me on to new issues, that’s why I wished to ask. As a result of once more, we every have our methods of on the lookout for issues, and we haven’t found all the things about even the locations that we go on a regular basis. In order that’s nice.
Rebecca: Taking a look at this now, there’s a lot info right here that I’ve by no means had a motive to make use of, and I might love to only discover it. You may actually seek for vegetation which might be black-walnut tolerant, which might be deer-resistant, that assist hummingbirds particularly. And so yeah, this can be a second for know-how that I feel we’re all form of having the ability to reap the advantage of.
Margaret: That is the optimistic model. This isn’t the AI creepy model [laughter]. So what we’re simply saying is that that kind of filtering is obtainable on Missouri Botanical, after which for natives solely it’s obtainable on the Girl Chook Johnson web site, which is incredible as properly in its personal method.
Rebecca: Then I feel the Audubon Society has one other one which’s a fairly simplistic one as properly. That’ll simply let you know actually good shrubs which have berries that birds actually like, which is sweet to know as properly. [Above, winterberry holly, Ilex verticillata, a bird favorite.]
Margaret: Sure, and native is so necessary in all types of gardening, however particularly after we get to ecological, native-plant gardening, and many others., native will get increasingly and extra necessary. I at all times inform folks after I give lectures and so forth, somebody will elevate their hand and say if it’s a digital class and there’s folks from all around the nation, they’re like, “Nicely, the place ought to I look?” And I at all times say, “Nicely, are you aware your state or county native plant society?” And often the reply isn’t any.
But when not, go to the North American Native Plant Society web site, they usually have a tab on their web site of each state or county, all of the states, and really Canadian provinces, too, for native plant societies that exist. And you’ll click on over to your one for Indiana or Missouri or no matter; Ontario, or no matter. And from that web site, you possibly can most likely discover entry to plant lists and steerage, actually hyper-local, and typically even all the way down to the county stage. And once more, even all the way down to, hey, why not meet with a few of your like-minded neighbors at their month-to-month conferences and be taught extra that method?
Rebecca: Perhaps you don’t want to purchase vegetation. Perhaps somebody will actually given them to you.
Margaret: All of them have a tab about plant gross sales and seed swaps and so forth. In order that’s probably the most hyper-local of all. So I like serving to folks filter down from North American Native Plant Society web site, to their state and an even-closer-to-home native plant web site for info.
Rebecca: All horticulture is native. You actually do want to determine what’s happening within the floor proper round your own home or constructing.
So I feel past simply determining what vegetation to make use of, there’s additionally a variety of sources on-line, like Girl Chook Johnson, the place they actually provide you with a variety of details about tips on how to develop vegetation, what they appear to be, what their ranges are. And in order that’s an entire different part of on-line sources the place you’re on the lookout for details about vegetation. When you recognize what you need to plant, however it’s good to know extra about them. And so for that, I actually do like Girl Chook Johnson; I feel that may be a great useful resource. After which I feel you had been saying, Margaret, that you just actually use GoBotany lots?
Margaret: I do as a result of I’m within the Northeast and GoBotany was began by the previous New England Wild Flower Society, now Native Plant Belief. So it’s geared to areas adjoining to the place I reside and backyard, so it has the plant palette for my space. So sure, I do. I examine there to see if one thing is native or near-native or launched or no matter in my space and get some fundamental info.
Rebecca: I actually use vary maps on-line. There’s so lots of them.
Margaret: I’m a map freak. I like them, too.
Rebecca: Oh my God, it’s superb. And my favourite, there’s so many good choices now, however my favourite is the Biota of North America Mission: BONAP. I most likely go to BONAP day by day in actuality. [Above, a sample BONAP range map for Canada goldenrod, Solidago canadensis.]
Margaret: Oh, me too, me too, to see the vary of a plant.
Rebecca: Yeah, when you’re not conversant in it, you place in a plant title, you possibly can even simply put in a genus like Aquilegia, and also you get these collection of maps for each species in Aquilegia, and it exhibits you highlighted county by county whether or not or not that plant has been present in that county. And there’s totally different colour codes, like whether or not or not it’s uncommon or it’s invasive or it’s safe, or there’s totally different colour codes that you would be able to see how that plant has been discovered within the county as properly.
Margaret: And once more, these vary maps, they’re not actually like, is it going to be on the hillside above my home? [Laughter.] It’s not that granular, proper? However you possibly can go from there, when you’ve been given the final concept that that plant is current in my normal neighborhood, once more: Go much more native. I like to do searches after I’m wanting into a selected space for the “flora of fill-in-the-blank.” So I may be—I’m Columbia County, New York—flora of Columbia County, New York, or flora of Maryland, the state of Maryland, or no matter.
And ceaselessly one can find that some both nonprofit or governmental company or tutorial entity, or in some circumstances, like in my county, these people who find themselves two married scientists on the Hawthorne Valley Farmscape Ecology Program have for greater than 20 years been updating the flora of my county. And plenty of occasions per week I am going to their listing, their up to date listing, to see is that species of aster right here or not, which goldenrods are right here or not. Have you learnt what I imply?
Rebecca: It’s superb.
Margaret: It’s unbelievable. So once more, with slightly extra sleuthing, when you’ve checked out these vary maps from BONAP or no matter, and also you’re like, “Oh, these are my goldenrods,” you can even get extra native if you could find out in regards to the up to date data within the flora of your county. So it’s type of enjoyable. Or out of your native plant society. I like these items.
Rebecca: Completely. Yeah. I feel the sleuthing a part of it, I feel we’re each researchers at coronary heart, and so we love that. However the sleuthing half is absolutely, such as you do must put in slightly little bit of effort to seek out issues in actuality typically.
Margaret: What different kinds of classes, so to talk, of information?
Rebecca: So as soon as you recognize your vegetation, you recognize about them. Typically we need to know the historical past of vegetation, the medicinal values of vegetation. You need to know the politics round sure vegetation, when you’re me. You need to know the way folks have associated to those vegetation over time. There are a variety of on-line sources as properly for deep dives round vegetation. And for that, typically it’s historical past, even. My favourite sources, I like to make use of “Arnoldia,” the Arnold Arboretum’s journal.
Margaret: Oh, wow. Sure.
Rebecca: They’ve the writings on-line. It’s all free, can simply, if you wish to know the historical past of, say, Davidia, the way it got here to america and the place it was found, and many others., and many others., that’s all on “Arnoldia.” And it’s fantastically written. [Above, Davidia, from a 1931 illustration in “Arnoldia.”]
Similar with the American Horticultural Society. Each journal is on-line at no cost since 1922, and you’ll actually dive into the knowledge there. And in order that’s lots about historical past and gardening.
However from an ecological perspective, the federal government and the USDA have unbelievable sources on-line. They don’t seem to be user-friendly; they take some sleuthing. However when you search for the Forest Silvics guide, what comes out once you put in a tree species is like: What animals does this tree relate to? What kinds of soil does it like? What are the opposite vegetation that need to reside with this tree? Simply an enormous quantity of data that has been gathered over many many years by the federal government.
The USDA additionally has a fireplace ecology web site, however once more, you don’t suppose—I’ve by no means thought—“O.Okay., I must know the fireplace ecology of this plant.” I imply, more and more sure, because the world modifications. However what you actually get from that info from this web site is when you put in tulip tree, for example, I used to be simply taking a look at it earlier than this podcast, and it had an entire paragraph about which facet of the slope to plant the tulip tree on and why. So actually, actually deep info. Whenever you’re actually able to learn like 5 pages about one species, it’s an important place to go.
Margaret: Huh. By no means been there. Fascinating.
Rebecca: One in every of my final favorites, which is slightly quirky: I do know a variety of us are most likely not utilizing Dave’s Backyard usually anymore, however when you bear in mind again within the day, even 20 years in the past, Dave’s Backyard was one of many first locations the place folks simply bought collectively and shared their vegetation on-line, their experiences with these vegetation and swapped seeds, and many others. And I’m undecided how lively it nonetheless is, however they’ve this function that I nonetheless use now and again, which is known as the Botanary. And it’s actually a botanical dictionary the place you possibly can take a particular epithet-
Margaret: One of many species names.
Rebecca: Precisely. Any species title like palustris, proper? Everyone knows Quercus palustris, the pin oak, you plug that in and it’s going to let you know what it means. So a variety of the species title, when you bear in mind, there’s a genus and a particular epithet. The primary phrase is the genus, the particular epithet is the second phrase. That second phrase is an adjective. And fairly often it’s telling you details about that plant.
Margaret: Like of the water, or of the woods, or yellow, or deciduous, or it tells you one thing, a top quality usually of the plant. Typically it tells you who found the plant, nevertheless it often tells you an attribute. Sure.
Rebecca: And it’s so useful for attending to know that plant, and even remembering these difficult-to-remember names when you recognize what they imply in Greek or Latin. And so I actually love the Botanary. It doesn’t get sufficient love.
Margaret: So it’s a plant title dictionary; that’s type of enjoyable. Numerous good things. And there’s hundreds of thousands and hundreds of thousands extra. So don’t be stunned when you hear these two voices once more, people [laughter], geeking out on different sources we use, as a result of we haven’t even talked about books and oh my goodness, oh my goodness, oh my goodness-
Rebecca: Journals, lessons, all of it.
Margaret: Completely. However simply to provide you an concept that it’s on the market, simply that it’s a must to know tips on how to filter and tips on how to be a discerning consumer, similar to you’d with the rest to determine trusted friendships, so to talk. So Rebecca, it’s at all times good to talk to you, and I hope your tea was good [laughter], and I hope I’ll speak to you quickly once more.
Rebecca: Completely. Thanks a lot, Margaret.
margaret’s useful resource listing
rebecca’s favourite reference websites
vary and standing
plant finders
about native vegetation
deep dives
American Horticultural Society: All points going again to 1922. All free even when you’re not a member.
“Arnoldia:” Superbly written archives of the great journal from Arnold Arboretum of Harvard. Nice for wooden flora histories.
USDA Fireplace Ecology Web site: In depth seems to be into all woody and a few herbaceous species: habitat kind, floral associations, and extra.
Forest Silvics: Nice element by species, ecosystem, and many others.
others
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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its sixteenth yr in March 2025. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear domestically within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Aug. 25, 2025 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You may subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
