going down gardening’s rabbit holes for answers, with flora & frost

THE GARDEN is my favourite escape from stress, after all, however as I’ve confessed earlier than on the podcast, I typically succumb to the lure of swiping my means by way of Instagram throughout non-garden hours, like so many hundreds of thousands of us modern-day residents.

These days, I’ve been having fun with the quick, information-packed movies from at present’s visitor, a gardener who goes by the display screen title of Flora & Frost, and because of the best way Instagram works, I can see that quite a few my keenest backyard pals additionally comply with her. So I assumed I’d invite her over to speak awhile and get to know her higher.

Flora & Frost’s actual title, like mine, is Margaret, and he or she is definitely a health care provider based mostly in Minnesota. In addition to having a reputation in frequent, we apparently share the inclination for taking place analysis rabbit holes, looking for solutions to all of the questions that the expertise of gardening and being in nature elicits in us.

Learn alongside as you take heed to the Oct. 28, 2024 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant under. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).

(Dragonfly picture prime of web page by Flora & Frost.)

backyard esoterica, with flora & frost

 

 

Margaret Roach: Have been you named for a grandmother Margaret as I used to be? [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: Nicely, a grandmother and mom. I’m really the eighth Margaret in my household, consider it or not. Yeah.

Margaret: Oh, O.Okay. So that you see, we have now all this in frequent. [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: Sure. Completely.

Margaret: And I ought to say to individuals, due to your function as a doctor, you don’t use your final title on social media, only for privateness causes and so forth and discretion. So that you’re Flora & Frost, you’re Margaret Flora & Frost.

Flora & Frost: Sure. Proper. I at all times say, “It’s not as a result of I’m significantly mysterious, it’s simply because if somebody’s Googling me, I don’t need an unhinged video of me speaking about vultures to be the very first thing that pops up.

Margaret: Precisely. And we’ll get to that vultures video. [Laughter.] So that you’ve been gardening how lengthy? You’re in Minnesota, I believe you’re a Zone 4B, 5A-ish?

Flora & Frost: Appropriate. I’m proper in a little bit microclimate, as a result of we’re in Minneapolis, so the airport and every thing else makes it a 5A reasonably than a 4B, which is in every single place surrounding us. But it surely will get chilly. [Laughter.] [Photo above from Flora & Frost’s garden.]

Margaret: And also you’ve been at it since not that lengthy, actually? Possibly 5 years or so?

Flora & Frost: Yeah, about 5 years. It began, I believe, the yr earlier than Covid, which was a pleasant time to get a brand new passion that then I might do at house.

Margaret: Sure. Not that we had been all at house or something.

Flora & Frost: Oh my God.

Margaret: Oh my goodness. And is it decorative, or greens, or a few of every thing, or how would you-

Flora & Frost: I do some little bit of every thing and it modifications every year. So final yr it was a giant deal with flowers. This yr we had a little bit bit extra in the best way of veggies. And yearly I add increasingly perennials and significantly natives.

Margaret: And have you ever had frost but on the market?

Flora & Frost: We’ve got not, fortunately. It’s been good to get pleasure from my flowers.

Margaret: Oh, good. Good, good, good. So, for me, fairly fast, after I started gardening, which was many a long time in the past, I noticed the largest backyard harvest of all was this countless provide of the query, “Why, why, why?” [Laughter.] It was like my curiosity turned insatiable as soon as I began hanging round exterior with crops, and bugs, and birds, and such. And every thing I checked out or touched prompted one other query. “Why, why, why, why, why?” And was that what occurred to you? Since you do these movies which can be type of, as I mentioned within the introduction, like these little journeys down the rabbit holes on specific matters.

Flora & Frost: Proper. Completely. I obtained into gardening initially after ending residency, which, as you might know, is a very intensive time, loads of work hours. I lastly obtained into a daily profession, the place I had a little bit bit extra free time, and I had no concept what to do with myself. [Laughter.] I actually keep in mind Googling “hobbies for adults,” as a result of it was simply so international to me to have this free time. And I assumed, properly, gardening sounds good. It’ll get me exterior, it’s one thing I can do with my household.

However actually, the factor that has saved me with it’s, yeah, this countless provide of enjoyable details, getting myself extra related to my environment, and I discover that the increasingly I find out about what I’m seeing, the extra I turn out to be in it.

Margaret: Sure. And in one in all your Instagram posts, you inform this anecdote about, I believe they had been from the 1870s, these two people, John and Anna Comstock. [John Comstock, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]

Flora & Frost: Comstock, sure.

Margaret: And I believe there’s a touch in that of why you do that Instagram account. Are you able to relay that to us?

Flora & Frost: Completely.

Margaret: Yeah.

Flora & Frost: Yeah. So John and Anna Comstock had been a married couple. John was a well-known entomologist who was really one of many first, or the primary, entomology teacher at Cornell College. He confirmed up as a scholar and so they didn’t have an entomology professor [laughter] and knew rather a lot about it. And so, the opposite college students had been like, “Can he simply educate us?” And so they allowed it, as a result of it was the 1800s.

And he obtained married to one in all his college students, not super-scandalous, he was nonetheless younger and a brand new teacher on the time. And each of them collectively did loads of analysis in entomology, however Anna particularly, she was the primary feminine professor at Cornell and did loads of engraving work, finding out bugs. However she obtained actually into instructing individuals about nature as a option to have them care extra about their setting and be extra intensive stewards of their setting.

And that’s actually my intent with loads of these movies, is I believe we get so disconnected with our environment, even when they’re issues we’re seeing day-after-day, that I discover the extra I find out about them, the extra I care about them. And I hope that that’s the case with different individuals studying about their setting as properly.

Margaret: Sure. Nicely, I do know that, for me, I’ve liked… Once more, as a result of it was so acquainted to me, the expertise that you just’re having, and I like that you just had been 5 years into gardening and I used to be pondering, “Sure, sure, sure. I requested about that too then.” [Laughter.] And naturally, you might have many alternative rabbit holes you went down, however there have been some that had been frequent, and it was enjoyable.

I believe you probably did your first Instagram publish within the fall of 2021, and now you might have 96,000-plus followers.

Flora & Frost: Proper.

Margaret: You could have this different profession, as you’ve defined, that you just skilled for, it’s not such as you’re attempting to be a social-media influencer full time or something like that. [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: I’ve been shocked by the variety of those who have adopted me, sure. I actually began this account as a result of I had a private Instagram account that I nonetheless have for household and pals, and I discovered I used to be posting about gardening rather a lot. And I assumed, “Lots of these individuals aren’t going to be super-interested on this.”

Margaret: Proper.

Flora & Frost: So I began a unique one, and I assumed, “In the event that they’re interested by gardening, they will comply with that.” And I made it public, as a result of I wasn’t speaking about something private, and it has simply exploded, which is mind-boggling, however I’m actually glad individuals are having fun with it.

Margaret: Yeah. And your matters vary from seed-starting ideas, to American meals historical past, to these vultures we had been speaking about for a second there. Talking of birds with disgusting desk manners. [Laughter.] [Turkey vulture photo from Wikimedia.]

Flora & Frost: Yeah.

Margaret: So how would you describe your style, your fundamental areas of curiosity?

Flora & Frost: It’s wherever my mind is taking me in the intervening time, to be sincere, however it began out extra issues in my fast neighborhood, in my backyard, and I’ll have a query that pops into my head. This occurs on a regular basis in conversations with pals. Somebody will marvel a couple of query and everybody will say, “Oh, yeah, that’s query,” however then no one will look it up.

Margaret: Proper.

Flora & Frost: And I’m like, “You already know we have now entry to the web, proper?” [Laughter.] I’m at all times the one which’s like, “Nicely, let’s discover out.” So it’s that with any query that I’ve that pops up. It began with my fast neighborhood, after which loads of that is now viewers asking questions on, “Hey, I’ve at all times been interested in this specific matter.” Typically I’ll begin studying about one thing, and that particular topic isn’t really very fascinating, however a aspect article turns into the main focus. So it’s a reasonably random course of, to be sincere.

Margaret: Yeah. It’s enjoyable. Like I mentioned, ever me exterior, it’s identical to, “Why that? Why that? Why is that there? What’s that?”

Flora & Frost: Precisely.

Margaret: I’m simply this curious particular person after I’m exterior, much more than after I’m indoors.

Flora & Frost: Yep.

Margaret: As an illustration, you had a few items in numerous posts, a few items of seed beginning recommendation. And one which I liked, I believe it was in March this yr, you say, “Cease rising seeds for the meals you would like you ate and develop what you actually eat.” [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure. I believe a lot of social media is so aspirational, it’s so cultivated, no pun supposed. And I believe it’s, the enemy of excellent is ideal, so individuals will develop issues as a result of they’re like, “Nicely, I ought to like this factor. I ought to like kale. I ought to eat extra lettuce.” However the actuality is, for those who’re desirous to discover a connection together with your backyard and revel in it, you ought to be rising issues that you just really like. And that’s O.Okay. We don’t must gate-keep completely different greens.

Margaret: Proper. You steered potatoes, as a result of who doesn’t like potatoes, proper?

Flora & Frost: Sure. Yeah.

Margaret: Yeah.

Flora & Frost: We’re having fun with some pleasant homegrown potatoes today.

Margaret: Yeah. And so, talking of lettuce, which you simply mentioned, you might have one other publish that’s about ‘Iceberg’ lettuce and its story, which I had by no means heard. I didn’t know. So inform us the temporary model of the ‘Iceberg’ lettuce story.

Flora & Frost: Certain. So ‘Iceberg’ lettuce was first launched by the Burpee Seed Firm within the Eighteen Nineties. And the factor that basically made it revolutionary is, as you understand, ‘Iceberg’ lettuce has a very excessive water content material, it’s actually crispy. And in order that was the primary crop, a minimum of to my data, that was shipped trans-nationally in trains that had been full of ice.

And earlier than then, for those who had been within the heart of the nation, or for those who had been in a spot the place it wasn’t in your rising season, over the winter, you had been actually counting on greens that had been canned or would retailer for months, and that obtained sort of boring. So this was the primary alternative for individuals to obtain meals from a unique rising zone. And it was revolutionary in that means. It was a proof of idea for the flexibility to ship meals. After all, it has turn out to be problematic in some methods [laughter], however that was the preliminary proof of idea of delivery issues from different locations.

Margaret: Proper. So ‘Iceberg’ obtained shipped in these vehicles of ice across the nation, and yeah, I didn’t know that. And I didn’t even actually keep in mind how previous it was, so it’s an oldie.

Flora & Frost: Yeah.

Margaret: And other people disdain it now and but, it’s a beautiful factor and it led the best way in, as you mentioned, getting issues out of season from place to position and so forth.

Flora & Frost: Proper.

Margaret: In order that’s fascinating. Additionally seed-starting associated, you might have this publish about perlite. What’s perlite? Which I didn’t actually know both. Are you able to inform us what perlite is? [Photo above from the Perlite Institute.]

Flora & Frost: That was fascinating to me. And once more, that was a kind of, as I’m potting up a houseplant, I’m like, “What are these little white issues in potting soil?” That it by no means occurred to me to look into it. In order that’s perlite. It’s used to make soil extra mild and fluffy, so for those who’re potting up one thing that it’s not heavy and also you don’t drown your roots. However I had at all times assumed that it was one thing artificial and it’s not.

Margaret: It appears to be like like styrofoam nearly.

Flora & Frost: It appears to be like like styrofoam, sure.

Margaret: Proper.

Flora & Frost: And I realized after the truth that some cheaper soil corporations will use styrofoam, which isn’t ideally suited. And principally, the best way you possibly can inform the distinction is, for those who press it between your fingers, if it crumbles and it’s exhausting, that’s perlite. If it squishes, that’s styrofoam.

Margaret: Oh.

Flora & Frost: So perlite is definitely hydrated and heated obsidian, and obsidian is volcanic glass. So what occurs is, this volcanic glass is made after magma cools. It begins to hydrate over time from moisture from the air, or if it’s within the backside of a river mattress, it features water molecules over time. After which, if that’s heated in a very scorching oven (which clearly needs to be industrial; you possibly can’t make this at house), then it pops like popcorn. So these water molecules begin to transfer extra quickly and broaden. And since there’s no means for that cup to be versatile, it primarily pops open and creates all of those little air pockets inside. In order that was fascinating, I had by no means considered it and then-

Margaret: Didn’t understand it was obsidian, didn’t understand it was volcanic glass, you understand what I imply? I didn’t know. Or I didn’t keep in mind if I did know, in order that was nice.

Flora & Frost: Certain.

Margaret: Yeah. And a fascination that you just had, that you just expressed in one in all your posts about fall foliage and the colours that reveal themselves and so forth, was additionally one of many issues I questioned about early on. And I keep in mind investigating, “What are these non-green pigments and why does that occur?” And so forth.

Flora & Frost: Proper.

Margaret: Yeah. In order that’s one thing, like in the intervening time, that we’re watching reveal in entrance of our eyes, proper?

Flora & Frost: Sure. I used to be investigating coloration modifications after which, primarily, why leaves fall within the first place? Is it simply they die and fall off of the tree? And it turns on the market’s a way more lively organic course of taking place, the place the tree is actually chopping the leaves off.

However yeah, studying about fall coloration, it provides one other layer of appreciation of the marvel that we’re seeing. And so, one of many issues that I realized is the yellow that we see in leaves, that comes from a household of pigments referred to as carotenoids, and so they’re there all summer time. It’s simply that that’s lined up by the truth that chlorophyll, that vibrant inexperienced coloration, is a lot extra seen.

Margaret: Proper.

Flora & Frost: However as chlorophyll manufacturing winds down because the season modifications, then that yellow begins to point out by way of.

Margaret: Yeah, I obtained then utterly geeky, I keep in mind one million years in the past, concerning the purple and reddish colours, the anthocyanins, and never simply those which can be revealed because the chlorophyll fades within the fall in some species, however the ones that sure crops that first come out of the bottom in spring not inexperienced, they arrive out of the bottom purplish or reddish-purple.

Flora & Frost: Certain.

Margaret: And as an illustration, a few natives, twinleaf, Jeffersonia diphylla, and Virginia bluebells, one other native, Mertensia, loads of non-native woodland peonies, they arrive out of the bottom not inexperienced. And I used to be at all times like, “Why, why, why?” So yeah, all these rabbit holes. [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: Completely. Nicely, and typically, my understanding is, a few of these smaller child leaves have a point of anthocyanins for a similar cause that fall leaves do, is researchers suppose that it in all probability gives a point of solar safety for extra fragile tissue. So I like that, that crops have sunscreen, too.

Margaret: Sure, and it could additionally deter predation from early-arising herbivores, as a result of these pigments will not be as tasty, apparently. And there’s a lot of theories, so who is aware of?

Flora & Frost: Precisely. [Laughter.]

Margaret: I don’t know for positive. Yeah, however it’s so enjoyable to look these items up and browse and so forth. And such as you, I like Latin plant names and what they reveal, the provenance that a few of them reveal. And lots of occasions, it’s who the plant was named after. And also you say you develop loads of bee balm and Monarda, and you probably did a narrative about what that’s named after, as an illustration.

Flora & Frost: Proper. Sure.

Margaret: Or who that’s named after. Yeah.

Flora & Frost: Nicolas Monardes. He was a Spanish doctor who lived within the 1500s. And most physicians, greater than a few hundred years in the past, had been physicians/botanists, as a result of we didn’t have artificial pharmacology at that time, and so it was individuals utilizing plant treatments. So he lived in Spain. And apparently, even though Monarda is native to North America, he by no means traveled to North America. He would acquire quite a lot of plant samples from the ports in Seville, after which write about them, research them, however by no means really made the journey over. [Cover of book by Monardes, above.]

Margaret: Oh.

Flora & Frost: However he was an fascinating fellow. He turned obsessive about tobacco, and thought that tobacco was a panacea, a cure-all, and so wrote extensively on all the ailments that tobacco might remedy. And it actually gained momentum for some time, after which individuals weren’t getting higher, shockingly. [Laughter.]

Margaret: I’m so shocked.

Flora & Frost: Fell out of favor at that time, however yeah, he would listing quite a lot of contagious ailments and in any other case that might be supposedly cured by tobacco.

Margaret: Proper. After which, I keep in mind you wrote one about Amsonia, the native bluestar, one other native that has a… Nicely, it’s really a touring doctor, I believe it was named for, you mentioned.

Flora & Frost: Yeah. So I believe he was stationary, however the touring element was George Washington.

Margaret: Oh, O.Okay.

Flora & Frost: George Washington was touring by way of and was unwell. And so he stopped on this city and John Amson was the doctor there. George Washington, apparently, and who is aware of if that is apocryphal or what have you ever, however he thought he was dying of tuberculosis. And John Amson was like, “Sir, it is a frequent chilly.” So I assumed that was simply humorous, as a result of we at all times discuss concerning the man flu.

Margaret: [Laughter.] Oh, you do, do you? Man flu, I see.

Flora & Frost: My husband oftentimes, he and I’ll have the identical sickness, however it presents in another way.

Margaret: I see.

Flora & Frost: And so, George Washington was very involved that he was very unwell, however it certainly was only a virus and he was superb.

Margaret: In order that was John Amson for whom Bluestars or Amsonia are named. That’s fascinating.

Flora & Frost: Yeah.

Margaret: So these birds. You do typically cowl birds, and there have been the vultures, with their bare, featherless heads, since you’re going to stay your head into the heart of roadkill.

Flora & Frost: Proper.

Margaret: Rotted, useless animals, you higher not have feathers, as a result of it’s exhausting to wash it off.

Flora & Frost: Precisely. Completely.

Margaret: Yeah. However you additionally did have a factor a couple of woodpecker, I neglect which one it was. Was it downy perhaps? [Downy woodpecker, above; photo from Wikimedia Commons.]

Flora & Frost: The downy woodpecker.

Margaret: And the way woodpeckers are sort of constructed. Why don’t they get injured by banging their heads in opposition to… And that is one other factor that I went down the trail of years in the past, I keep in mind, looking for out extra about. So inform us a little bit bit about it, concerning the woodpecker’s particular attributes.

Flora & Frost: So their physiologic construction is fascinating. In order people, we have now this free floating bone in our neck referred to as the hyoid. And that’s the place our tongue is related to. So the bottom of our tongue connects means down there in our throat. And these woodpeckers even have a hyoid bone, however their hyoid is of their brow, proper? So their tongue extends all the best way from their brow, round their cranium, after which out of their mouth. And it’s very stretchy, so their tongue can prolong fairly a methods. However what scientists have discovered is that, when they’re pecking, primarily they use their tongue and contract it to function a helmet.

So while you get concussions, often it’s as a result of the mind bounces round throughout the cranium. It’s essential for us to have additional area within the cranium, as a result of if there are modifications in strain, you don’t wish to have that be deadly, and the identical factor is true with woodpeckers. You wish to have a little bit bit of additional area, however not when you find yourself banging your head in opposition to one thing. And so, that tongue will contract and maintain the mind in place in order that they don’t injure themselves once they’re pecking. Which is simply fascinating.

Margaret: I keep in mind in, I believe it was 2016, a conservationist, scientist, Stephen Shunk, I believe he’s from the Pacific Northwest. He wrote the Peterson Information to Woodpeckers that yr, and I keep in mind interviewing him. And he was telling me additionally that they’ve little or no cerebrospinal fluid in comparison with, say, the human mind, the place our mind sloshes round in our heads, and that may trigger, in each instructions, backwards and forwards, growth, growth, repercussions from concussion.

Flora & Frost: Precisely.

Margaret: And that they’ve an entire, as he mentioned, I believe he informed me it was a “suite of diversifications.” They’ve particular ribs that different birds don’t have which have very robust muscular tissues hooked up to them, so the influence in that a part of the physique is minimized. Woodpeckers have been studied for designs for-

Flora & Frost: Helmet design.

Margaret: Yeah, helmet design for bike and soccer helmet, and medical analysis on shaken child syndrome.

Flora & Frost: Proper.

Margaret: It’s very, very fascinating. They’ve specialised toes that they will actually maintain on higher and to floor themselves, so to talk, and extra-stiff tail feathers, I believe additionally, which… And you’ll see that for those who take a look at one in all them, a aspect view, an image of one in all them on a tree, their tail is admittedly pressed into the bark. Have you learnt what I imply? To stabilize them additional.

Flora & Frost: Yeah.

Margaret: And so they have particular eye… Their nictitating membrane, I believe that’s the best way you say it, the third or additional eyelid, it’s thicker than different birds’. They’ve their very own goggles. They’re really-

Flora & Frost: It’s so fabulous.

Margaret: … geared up. I believe it’s simply extremely cool. Oh, now I’m being loopy, sorry. [Laughter.]

Flora & Frost: You’re not being loopy. No, I adore it. I like after we see designs in nature that we then attempt to make the most of for ourselves. I did a video on dragonflies and their distinctive flying mechanisms, and we have now tried to adapt that to navy helicopters. So we’ll see all of those designs in nature that actually are unbelievable, after which attempt to get as shut as potential for ourselves.

Margaret: Proper. So I used to be simply curious. So I confessed originally that, there I’m, swiping, your stuff. And do you discover inspiration typically on Instagram itself?

Flora & Frost: Completely. I like following different academic accounts, I like following extra of the aesthetic gardening accounts as properly. My backyard isn’t essentially aesthetically pleasing, it’s as chaotic as my analysis type [laughter]. And so, it’s good to comply with different individuals the place issues are very rigorously cultivated and simply benefit from the range in gardens as properly.

Margaret: So any favourite accounts you wish to name out, otherwise you’re not going to share? None of them involves your thoughts?

Flora & Frost: Oh, gosh.

Margaret: I like loads of the general public gardens, clearly, that… You already know, for inspiration, that’s one of many issues.

Flora & Frost: Yeah. I like following botanical backyard accounts, and so New York Botanical Backyard, the Brooklyn Botanic Backyard, after all the Minnesota Arboretum, have to offer them their due. And a superb place to go to for those who do reside in Minnesota.

Margaret: Some other rabbit gap that you just’re down in the intervening time? Is there any topic that you just’re exploring proper now?

Flora & Frost: Sure. So really, my husband informed me that I wanted to attempt to make the Krebs cycle fascinating. And I informed him that’s past my functionality. [Laughter.]

Margaret: The Krebs cycle?

Flora & Frost: The Krebs cycle. So I don’t know for those who keep in mind from biology, the Krebs cycle is the cycle of mobile respiration that enables cells to generate power, primarily. And thru highschool, faculty, med faculty, I needed to be taught it and relearn it a number of occasions. I mentioned, “Nicely, I can’t make the Krebs cycle fascinating, however the man who it’s named after, Hans Krebs, may be very fascinating.”

Margaret: Oh.

Flora & Frost: He was a German Jewish man who was on the verge of creating these discoveries proper on the time that Nazis got here into energy, and so was kicked out of Germany. After which mentioned, “Nicely, no drawback.” Moved to England, had all these fabulous discoveries beneath the British Empire, and I simply love when individuals get penalties of their very own actions.

Margaret: Sure.

Flora & Frost: So I like that he’s now recognized beneath that framework as an alternative of that discovery taking place beneath Nazi Germany.

Margaret: Nicely, fellow Margaret, aka Flora & Frost, thanks a lot. And thanks for giving me a spot to go and go to and distract myself from the world in the intervening time [laughter]-

Flora & Frost: Oh, thanks a lot.

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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its fifteenth yr in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear domestically within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Japanese, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Oct. 28, 2024 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You’ll be able to subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).