site preparations for meadow-making, with benjamin vogt

ARE YOU THINKING about the potential of transitioning an space of your garden into one thing extra numerous, like possibly a meadow? A query I’m requested rather a lot is methods to go about it—the precise preparatory steps. So I invited Benjamin Vogt, a specialist in pure panorama design, to stroll us via the method.

Benjamin, primarily based in Nebraska, is proprietor of Prairie Up, previously referred to as Monarch Gardens. And moreover providing backyard design to shoppers nationwide, he teaches on-line lessons and webinars as effectively. He’s the writer of two books, “A New Backyard Ethic,” and extra not too long ago, “Prairie Up: An Introduction to Pure Backyard Design” (affiliate hyperlinks).

Plus: Enter to win a duplicate of “Prairie Up” by commenting within the field close to the underside of the web page.

Learn alongside as you hearken to the July 15, 2024 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant under. You may subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).

getting a meadow began, with benjamin vogt

Margaret: Are you sweltering on the market or no? We’ve acquired the warmth this yr. Is that the deal?

Benjamin: Our sweltering begins on Friday and solely lasts 4 days, fortunately.

Margaret: So earlier than we get began: Congratulations in your new web site, which is so loaded with info. It’s not simply lovely, nevertheless it’s acquired plenty of nice stuff in it. So that you simply survived that large course of too, proper? Making a meadow, making an internet site—they’re kind of the identical.

Benjamin: Oh my gosh, sure, sure. That was over a four-month course of to get that web site going and ensure it really labored. And there’s nonetheless hiccups as you realize, that’s the way it goes. However I simply needed to ensure that I did one thing actually totally different. I felt like one thing that wasn’t on the market simply telling individuals, handholding them, “That is the way you do it, that is how you exchange from garden and create a prairie backyard of any dimension. And right here’s a bunch of free stuff and if you wish to go additional, you may get on-line lessons, or one thing.”

Margaret: Yeah, no. Nicely, it’s good. And I’ve been clicking round and studying issues and that’s why I acquired in contact. And we’re doing this replace immediately, one other phase immediately, as a result of there’s numerous good things that I noticed may help me to reply questions that I don’t have the firsthand data on that you just do by any means.

So one factor I simply need to say is on the homepage it says, quote, “Garden is a weed.” [Laughter.] So, is it?

Benjamin: I like to start out bother, however hopefully it’s good bother. Nicely, I imply, so typically we hear {that a} native crops are weeds or anytime you’re taking a prairie plant or a prairie planting and put it within the context of suburbia, for instance, particularly if you’re changing garden, effectively then it’s abruptly a weed. But when it’s out in a wild prairie or grassland or meadow or savanna or one thing like that, it’s not a weed.

In order that’s at all times very irritating to me. And I do know numerous my shoppers, and particularly speaking with weed-control inspectors, their concept of weeds are a little bit bit outdated too typically. Issues are getting higher throughout the nation, however we nonetheless have this outdated conception of what a weed is. So I’m identical to, garden is the weed; t’s so synthetic. We’ve to throw a lot water and fertilizer and upkeep on it only for it to be maintained.

Margaret: In order I mentioned within the introduction, lots of people are in all probability eyeing their expansive garden these days and pondering of constructing a change, as a result of due to numerous the schooling that folks like yourselves have helped with over the current years, and I do know lots of people in all probability assume, “Nicely, however I don’t stay in Nebraska like he does.” However there’s several types of plant communities. I say the phrase meadow, you may say the phrase prairie. In some circumstances there’s savanna, there’s fields. Nicely, what are all these issues? Can we simply begin with that earlier than we go and attempt to train individuals to make a meadow [laughter]?

Benjamin: Yeah, that is precisely why I believe it’s on web page two of my ebook “Prairie Up,” that complete rationalization. I believe these phrases are very interchangeable for many of us. It’s not interchangeable for soil scientists or conservationists or one thing, however all of us have the identical picture in our head. I believe if individuals say meadow possibly you imply an open glade stuffed with flowers that’s surrounded by bushes. However these ecosystems happen in each state. This prairie concept, this meadow concept, this savanna concept. We’ve the longleaf pine savanna remnants within the Southeast, the Piedmont alongside the East Coast, the Palouse within the Northwest, the Carrizo Plain in California, sandhills right here in Nebraska. So now we have these environments and ecosystems in every single place. So it’s not like prairie or meadow is simply in the midst of the nation. Not any stretch of the creativeness.

Margaret: One of many first crops I met in quotes once I got here to the place the place I stay and backyard possibly 35 years in the past or so, was little bluestem grass, which I had solely ever seen beforehand once I was visiting in Wisconsin with Neil Diboll who owns Prairie Nursery. And I used to be like, “Why do I’ve little bluestem right here?” [Laughter.] I used to be like, “What? I simply noticed that on the market. It says prairie, it says, huh, what?” Yeah, precisely. There are grassland plant communities in many various locations.

Benjamin: And effectively, and simply take little bluestem. It’s just about in virtually each state within the decrease 48. It’s only a couple states I don’t assume it’s native to. And I at all times like to inform individuals, particularly people on the East Coast, we share so most of the identical crops. Proper right here in Jap Nebraska, now we have so most of the identical native crops, and that’s all due to geologic historical past. Now, if we go 100 miles west of the place I’m, then issues begin to shift a little bit bit.

Margaret: So if we need to take into consideration getting began, and we don’t have to present it an actual identify, however let’s simply use the phrase meadow as a result of it sounds to me in a manner, the phrase meadow sounds the closest to gardening. As a result of there was all that business, I suppose—and that is horrible that I’m influenced by it—however you heard of the advertising and marketing gadgets like “meadow in a can” or “meadow mixes” for seeds which are meadow combine for this space of the nation, or that. They have a tendency to market issues like that versus say a prairie combine earlier on to gardeners for… So let’s simply use the phrase meadow for the second.

There’s numerous methods to get began, however should you don’t get began, whether or not you’re going to work with seeds or small panorama plugs or bigger crops or nonetheless you’re going to plant the factor, you could possibly waste some huge cash and numerous time, couldn’t you, should you don’t put together your canvas, so to talk.

Benjamin: Yeah, I imply there’s so some ways to have a look at this. I believe one of many issues we overlook is simply website evaluation. And particularly in case you are changing a part of your garden right into a meadow sort backyard panorama, I at all times like to inform people, effectively, what a part of your lawnscape or any a part of your panorama, the place are issues struggling? Possibly there’s an excessive amount of shade so garden can’t develop, otherwise you really feel like you may solely develop hosta there. That’s in all probability an ideal place to consider doing one thing meadow-ish with native crops. Or we’re all experiencing cycles of drought and warmth proper now. Final yr in Jap Nebraska, we had been in drought degree 4. It was simply insane and lawns had been dying left and proper.

So possibly within the actually sizzling, open areas, or possibly you’ve sandier soil in these areas, that’s an ideal place to consider doing one thing extra sustainable. It’s going to be extra drought tolerant or resilient to the local weather change that we’re in, and that may solely worsen. In order that’s your first space to go to, the positioning evaluation, what’s struggling, what sort of shade is there? How is water flowing from the positioning, what sort of weed pressures are there, all that good things. However then the sensible, I do know you need me to speak about sensible lawn-.

Margaret: Positive, however I need you to inform us the way you assume earlier than you dig in in any manner, actually or figuratively [laughter]. As a result of once more, if we rush, if individuals rush, if they simply go order the crops or order the seed and assume it’s simply going to occur, I imply there’s much more pondering that wants to enter it, and a bunch of arduous work, too.

Benjamin: And particularly, and the arduous work isn’t simply within the prep, both, or the planting, it may be for a yr or two afterward. Generally these websites have numerous weed stress that we simply can’t anticipate. We don’t know what weed seeds are within the soil financial institution. So you really want to maintain on prime of a few of these weeds. Some are extra problematic than others. You don’t have to fret about all of them, however should you carry on them the primary yr or two, then you definately’re actually serving to the crops set up and get going. After that, it tends to be rather a lot much less work, particularly should you’re planting densely in layers within the native plant communities which are endemic to the world and suit your website and all that good things.

Margaret: So there’s prep and there’s aftercare, and now we have to make a dedication to our planning prep and aftercare then.

Benjamin: Yeah, completely. And hopefully that aftercare and that administration, it’s enjoyable for you. You prefer to go on the market and, “Oh, what’s that cool plant? Oh, look what that cool factor is doing. I by no means knew it was going to try this. That’s neat.” So simply going on the market and 10-minute stroll each day and also you simply handle one little factor throughout that 10 minutes each day. It doesn’t should be a giant, “I’ve to order 10 yards of mulch and unfold it and blow up my again kind of factor.”

Margaret: Proper [laughter]. So by way of the prep, I imply if we do consider our website and we’ve chosen an space possibly primarily based on one in all your examples that might be good for transitioning. And we’re saying that it’s in turf; it’s in turfgrass proper now. There’s various alternative ways to get rid of that turfgrass as a way to give the brand new crops, the specified crops an opportunity. So what sort of methods are there to try this?

Benjamin: There’s 4 or possibly 5 methods to try this, and I’m going to preface this with some caveats by saying it kind of relies upon a little bit bit on what your ideology is so far as prep, and kind of how a lot time dedication you’ve. And if it’s a entrance yard or a yard, as a result of I don’t assume you need to put plastic out in a entrance yard for a complete rising season. I don’t know the way your neighbors would really feel about that.

However then there’s additionally your bodily capacity. How a lot are you able to really do? So the primary, effectively, I already talked about plastic, individuals will put out a sheet of plastic—black, white, no matter, blue tarp or one thing—to kill no matter is there on website.

And what occurs rather a lot is people will try this only one time, and that’s really not what it’s best to do. It is best to do it for 4 weeks, take the duvet of the plastic off for 2 weeks, let weed seeds germinate, let new issues germinate so that they’re not going to trigger issues for you down the street. Then after two weeks, put that tarp again on once more. And also you try this a few instances for a complete rising season, and that may actually set you up for lots of success. However once more, tarps blow away. Your neighbors may not prefer to see your complete entrance yard in a tarp [laughter]. There’s microplastics coming off of that plastic sheeting, and then you definately acquired to get rid of it and it’s extra plastic waste. So there are execs and cons to that.

Margaret: So solarization is one, or tarping, relying on whether or not you utilize a transparent or a dark-colored piece of plastic. Solarization or tarping is one technique, to not be simply put down as soon as and also you assume you’ve solved every little thing, as a result of as you identified, and also you identified earlier, there generally is a actually deep seed financial institution of weed seeds that need to have the subsequent technology, the subsequent technology, and the subsequent technology. So we’re going to tarp, we’re going to let the subsequent technology emerge, we’re going to tarp once more, and so on.

Benjamin: Yeah. And if you wish to be actually, actually thorough, that’s what you are able to do for the subsequent technique, which is utilizing a chemical software, a glyphosate-based product. Now, you probably have a super-pristine garden and it’s thick and plush and inexperienced, and also you’ve spent some huge cash sustaining it, likelihood is this isn’t assured. However likelihood is, your weed-seed financial institution isn’t going to be as loopy as one thing that has numerous weeds already in it that you may see clovers and I don’t know, God is aware of what, proper?

So with glyphosate, if you wish to be actually cautious, you may spray after which wait a pair weeks and see what comes up and spray once more and try this for a few months. Or you are able to do the one-time software, put down an inch of mulch, which is what we do, and that may assist cut back a few of these annual weed seeds from germinating as a result of these seeds want daylight earlier than they’ll do something. After which we put all of our plant plugs within the floor. So I hope that simply made sense.

Margaret: So you’ve this in your web site, you name this selection—the usage of chemical herbicide—you name this, “You’ll hate me for this.” [Laughter.] That’s your identify. And it’s true, and I at all times prefer to say each time this topic comes up about utilizing chemical purposes in any occasion, is that even conservation organizations do that, within the least-toxic technique attainable, for the higher good. Which isn’t to say broadcast spraying anytime they see one little weed in a crack within the sidewalk, taking out a gallon of one thing; it’s not willy-nilly. It’s targeted. It’s in line with the bundle instructions. It’s with a function, and it’s for the higher good to then be planting one thing.

So once more, conservation organizations that run properties, wilder properties, the place invasives are taking up and so forth, they do use them as a result of they need to carry again the native crops and so forth. So we’re not saying we’re in favor, we’re like large believers in herbicides. We’re saying that is a method that you are able to do it, that should you do it neatly, it’s a minimal quantity and it may be for the higher good—that you may find yourself with a meadow, which is way more numerous than that garden you removed. Sure?

Benjamin: Sure. Thanks. That was an ideal speech. [Laughter.] And I additionally need…

Margaret: I rehearsed it.

Benjamin: I additionally need to add, it’s not that costly and it’s not that labor-intensive. In order that’s an important boon for these conservationists, too. But additionally I believe for us, and it’s the one factor we ever use, and it’s the one time we ever use it, so it’s a one-time shot.

Margaret: Proper. So these are two potentialities. Solarization and the “you’ll hate me for this” herbicide technique, sure? [Laughter.] And kind of like solarization, you could possibly additionally smother it with different supplies, proper?

Benjamin: Cardboard, newspaper. Yeah, that’s the lasagna technique, proper?

Margaret: Do you name that what? Sheet mulching?

Benjamin: Sheet mulching, sure. That’s something-

Margaret: Inform us the way you try this.

Benjamin: I imply that’s one thing I’ve by no means achieved as a result of, effectively, I’m normally engaged on a bigger mission, so I don’t have 10,000 sq. ft of cardboard. So should you’re working in a smaller space and this suits your ideology, and your again and your knees are all in cooperating with you, possibly scalp the garden actually quick, put down a layer of cardboard or newspaper, thick newspaper, moist it a little bit bit, placed on some mulch or placed on a little bit little bit of topsoil. I suppose it will depend on what your website situations are like. And you may let that sit over the winter so it mixes all in and biodegrades, or should you can moist that cardboard straight away, you may simply dig proper into it and begin planting.

Margaret: Yeah. Dan Jaffe Wilder at Norcross Wildlife Basis in Massachusetts [photo above from his yard]—he’s been doing that in his personal yard rather a lot. Once more, on a smaller scale, not in his large restoration initiatives, however in his personal yard. And he adheres to that, and I’ve heard different individuals describe it, that kind of smothering form of factor, and form of utilizing recycled supplies and so forth after which the mulch. In order that’s one other technique. Now then how for much longer would I plant into that, get my child crops in there?

Benjamin: What do you imply, how for much longer?

Margaret: Oh, I’m sorry. How for much longer? How a lot later? [Laughter.] Sorry, how for much longer? How a lot later? It’s sizzling in right here. I’m sorry.

Benjamin: I do know. I do know. I’m sorry.

Margaret: How a lot later? I used to be like I need to make it possible for I’ve achieved my job of smothering these, what was there, the turf and so forth. So then if I did that this summer time or fall and I let it sit all winter, may I plant subsequent spring? Or how do I do know when it’s O.Ok. to plant? Or can I plant straight away or what’s the timeline?

Benjamin: Each. I believe you do it both manner. For those who plant straight away, you need to make it possible for cardboard is sweet and moist, so it’s simpler to dig into. However once more, as with every planting, it doesn’t matter what technique you’re doing, anytime you dig into the soil and disturb it, you by no means know what you’re going to carry to the floor round that planting gap.

Margaret: [Laughter.] That’s for positive.

Benjamin: Shock, have enjoyable.

Margaret: After which what’s one other technique that we may take into account?

Benjamin: Yeah, I believe that is the final one. I don’t know. I misplaced rely, however now this one is a little bit bit extra adventurous. That is one thing I’ve achieved on my personal property, 2,500 sq. ft out again, the place I had a garden. I hated garden, I simply harassed it out. I by no means watered it, I by no means fertilized it. And once I mowed, I mowed actually excessive. So that actually harassed the garden. So I had plenty of patches open up, plenty of open areas, and I simply began planting issues right here and there, in teams and much. After which I threw down some seed and ultimately these crops unfold and took over and killed the final remnants of garden that had been on the market.

Margaret: So that you form of direct planted, you virtually overseeded your weakened garden, is that the concept?

Benjamin: Overseeded and planted straight into it. Now, this can be a fescue garden, a tall fescue garden I’m speaking about. So there are variations you probably have one thing, a extra sociable, aggressive garden like a zoysia or one thing like that.

Margaret: Attention-grabbing. And also you mentioned you mowed it actually excessive to emphasize it out?

Benjamin: Yeah. Nicely, not on function. I’m a lazy lawn-taker-care-of-er [laughter], so I might let it develop actually lengthy, like 8 inches or 12 inches or one thing. It’s behind a fence, no one can see it. And I simply lastly, it’s like, “Oh, I suppose I ought to mow it.” So yeah, that stresses it out.

Margaret: After which, I imply, I suppose we may additionally hire a sod cutter, proper?

Benjamin: Oh, sure. That’s another choice.

Margaret: It’s he-man. Actually, it’s a macho machine, excuse me for sounding sexist, nevertheless it’s not a light-weight machine, a sod cutter, is it?

Benjamin: I do know individuals of all gender identities who’re macho, so no matter.

Margaret: However all I meant was it takes some muscle to run a sod cutter.

Benjamin: A complete lot of muscle, and you bought to have a trailer.

Margaret: That’s all I imply, yeah.

Benjamin: And you bought to go to the ironmongery shop to select it up. And possibly I ought to undergo the cons of all these strategies in 10 seconds. So yeah, sod cutter.

Margaret: Yeah, we will try this however a sod cutter is one other manner, proper?

Benjamin: Yeah, a sod cutter is one other manner, however then you definately’re spewing out all that exhaust from the sod cutter. What do you do with all that sod that’s left over, particularly if it’s weed-infested, I imply, do you actually need to compost that? In all probability not.

Again to sheet mulching. There’s been some research that present if you put that cardboard layer down, you’re really impeding water and air switch between the soil and the ambiance.

With solarizing, you’re baking the soil, you’re frying it, so that you’re frying all of the soil life that’s in there. And don’t ever until, people. Tilling is the worst factor you are able to do on so many ranges. You’re going to have a lot weed stress, you’re destroying the soil construction, you’re killing soil life. It’s simply the worst prep technique ever.

Margaret: Yeah. So every one has its—and we all know the draw back of the herbicide. So every one, there’s execs and cons, and that’s why you mentioned originally we form of every should make our personal choice weighing these, our kind of moral, philosophical, what we’re comfy with and quantity of labor we will do and the finances and no matter else. So there’s numerous alternative ways.

Benjamin: Most necessary factor is simply cut back your garden, as a result of now we have an excessive amount of of it.

Margaret: Proper, precisely. Nicely, and so moreover prep, I imply you form of had been simply speaking about tilling and about just a few locations alongside the best way in our dialog you’ve talked about concerning the weed seeds which are within the soil and so forth within the seed financial institution within the soil.

And I discover that with sustaining a meadow, the kind of weeding, even when I understand how to establish what I want to cut back or eliminate because the meadow evolves and modifications, I’ve a a lot older meadow, and so I’ve woody issues that need to stay in it as a result of succession is occurring. And so I’ve numerous brambles, like Rubus species and so forth that need to be in it. And I at all times have that query of, effectively, do I dig them out and open up? Nicely, you understand how the roots of Rubus are, blackberry or raspberry [laughter]. It’s like, do I open up all that soil and probably find yourself with extra issues sprouting up? Or how do you try this? What’s your kind of tactic for aftercare?

Benjamin: There’s so some ways to method this as a result of disturbance can really be a useful factor. It units some new issues in movement. Out right here in Jap Nebraska, numerous our meadows, prairies, they have a tendency to get grass-dominant. So now we have to usher in a little bit little bit of disturbance. And that may be via grazing, it may be via hearth. In a smaller panorama that may be via digging up bushes or berry shrubs or weeds or no matter.

After which you’ve that hole, and that provides you a chance to introduce a brand new forb species in there, or to let different crops kind of self-sow in there. So I believe disturbances might be actually useful in kind of resetting issues a little bit bit, particularly to… I imply, it may also be detrimental [laughter]. You don’t know. You may have some actually unhealthy stuff transfer in.

However I at all times like to inform individuals this, too. And once more, that is site-dependent. It will depend on should you’re making an attempt to do a entrance yard, actually extremely designed panorama that your neighbors are going to be received over by, or if it’s extra yard, bigger acreage and also you simply can’t go in there and preserve each sq. foot. As a result of if it’s this bigger yard, extra wilder area, then you definately don’t have to be anal-retentive concerning the weeds. And there are weeds like crabgrass and foxtail, they’re simply annuals. So long as now we have the great things rising quick and dense and thick and outcompeting and shading the soil, these annual weeds are going to go away, and so they’re not an issue.

I attempted to clarify this to a weed inspector as soon as [laughter], however we misplaced and we misplaced the backyard and simply didn’t need to be affected person as a result of it was a entrance yard area. So in a entrance yard extra designed area, you need to sustain on that weed administration, even when they’re annual weeds. But when it’s a thick panorama, most individuals strolling by in all probability aren’t going to note what’s a weed and what isn’t.

Margaret: Proper. Proper. Is there one other query moreover this kind of aftercare weed factor? Is there one other little tip or one thing that you just’re requested on a regular basis that you just, moreover the prep and what you simply mentioned concerning the weeding, another one which’s just like the hit parade of questions [laughter] that you end up telling individuals on a regular basis?

Benjamin: Yeah, I’m married. I’m not obtainable. I’m sorry. No.

Margaret: You together with your jokes, you’ve some fairly humorous jokes on…you’ve elevator jokes and every kind of jokes on the brand new web site; you’re cracking me up.

Benjamin: Elevator jokes press all my buttons. I don’t like them.

Margaret: Uh-huh.

Benjamin: One of many issues I get requested prime 5 at the least is, or this can be a remark: “I’ve a extremely shady city lot, so I do know I can’t have a meadow backyard.” And I’m identical to, “No, I’ve acquired 20 crops I can record off the highest of my head. We are able to create a beautiful shade meadow in that panorama.” You don’t simply should have hosta after which a bunch of wooden mulch or simply naked soil. We are able to get a bunch of sedge in there and get that matrix groundcover layer going with a bunch of various sedge species. After which now we have so many woodland for perennial and ephemeral and biennial species that we will herald there. And you may have a shade meadow [photo above]. Completely.

Margaret: Oh, that’s one. Nicely, that’s one to finish on too. That’s very optimistic and it form of widens the, “Ooh, I can do that,” form of potentialities for individuals. So I may discuss to you much more. And in addition I may have you ever simply come on and we may do an entire phase in your telling jokes, elevator jokes [laughter], however we received’t try this. However thanks, Benjamin, for making the time. So I hope I’ll discuss to you once more quickly. And congratulations on doing the brand new web site, which I’ll give hyperlinks to in fact and every little thing as effectively. So thanks.

Benjamin: Superior. Thanks, Margaret.

(All photographs from Benjamin Vogt besides as famous.)

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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its fifteenth yr in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Hear regionally within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the July 15, 2024 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You may subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).