ALMOST 10 YEARS AGO on this program, I talked about making sourdough starter with immediately’s visitor, Sarah Owens, on the event of the publication her ebook known as “Sourdough.” Now a tenth anniversary version of the James Beard Award-winning ebook is about to reach, and I needed to verify in with Sarah—who can also be an achieved gardener—to encourage us to perhaps get that starter going once more and do some baking with seasonal substances this fall and winter.
Sarah Owens, writer of “Sourdough: Recipes for Rustic Fermented Breads, Sweets, Savories, and Extra” (affiliate hyperlink), has already had a number of very artistic careers. Initially an expert ceramic artist, she skilled as a horticulturist at New York Botanical Backyard’s College of Skilled Horticulture, after which spent six years because the rosarian at Brooklyn Botanic Backyard.
In 2013, Sarah based a bakery in Brooklyn, then ultimately moved to California, the place she lives and gardens and bakes immediately. She is a well-liked instructor of baking workshops and affords on-line programs as properly. (Photograph prime of web page is the sourdough beet bread from the ebook.)
Plus: Remark within the field close to the underside of the web page to enter the giveaway for a replica of the tenth anniversary version of the ebook “Sourdough.”
Learn alongside as you hearken to the Oct. 6, 2025 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
sourdough (and gardening), with sarah owens
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Margaret Roach: Are you in Sonoma County, Sarah? Is that the place you might be?
Sarah Owens: I’m. I moved to California in January of 2020.
Margaret: Yeah. Oh, boy; that was a 12 months. And earlier than we discuss sourdough and baking, since we’re each gardeners, I needed to ask you about your backyard, in California. So it sounds prefer it’s about 5 years previous, and what’s it like? Inform us about it.
Sarah: Yeah, it’s a utterly totally different strategy to gardening than I’ve ever tried earlier than in my life. I discovered learn how to backyard in East Tennessee and Appalachia after which professionally in New York. And transferring to this local weather, it positively has numerous seasons and I’d say many micro-seasons, however it’s typically divided into the moist and the dry season.
And so after I take into consideration learn how to plant, learn how to prune, learn how to do all of the duties which can be needed to take care of a backyard, it’s on a really totally different schedule. And due to our zone, our rising zone, and all of the totally different micro-climates right here, it’s been an unbelievable expertise and a rising expertise for my talent set and in addition simply studying learn how to fall into rhythm with what grows naturally right here.
Margaret: So technically, what zone are you presupposed to be there?
Sarah: Proper right here on this property, I’d say we’re most likely a 9b, though in the event you go 20 minutes down the street, that could possibly be a 9a, in the event you go half-hour inland, that is likely to be a ten [laughter]. It actually relies upon.
And I’m in shut proximity to the Pacific Ocean, so we get a heavy marine layer often that rolls within the night, and relying on what time of the 12 months, it hangs very low all through the morning. And that influences what might be grown right here. It influences the moisture within the air, clearly, but additionally in the course of the winter it may be fairly a bit colder right here than different components of the county. And that additionally influences significantly the fruit bushes that we are able to develop right here.
Margaret: So that you had been the rosarian at Brooklyn Botanic. Do you could have roses? [Laughter.] And also you’re a baker, and a prepare dinner—do you could have herbs? And what’s lurking in that backyard of yours, and the way huge is it? Is it in a rural space or a suburban space or city or what?
Sarah: Yeah, it’s in an agricultural space, so I’m kind of wedged in between two vineyards that had been previously apple orchards. So this a part of the county, as a result of we’re colder in winter, we have now the nippiness hours which can be essential to develop some actually scrumptious apples, and we nonetheless have fairly a couple of heirloom apples on the property. However now it’s largely Pinot noir, and grapes. And that’s additionally most likely going to alter within the subsequent few years simply due to the fallout of the wine business right here. However that appears to be the way in which issues go agriculturally right here.
But it surely’s a wonderful panorama, and I’ve a few quarter of an acre, so it’s not a really massive backyard. And I’m in a rental home that I’m very lucky to be in shut proximity to some fantastic neighbors and individuals who have lived right here for many years and love this land very dearly. And so I’ve inherited totally different bushes, largely fruit bushes, that I do know the histories and tales of how and after they had been planted. And the cottage that I reside in is definitely the previous home of the orchard supervisor that lived right here for a really very long time.
Margaret: Oh, candy.
Sarah: And that that orchard supervisor beloved to do a number of various kinds of grafting. In order I’m talking to you, I’m searching the window at a citrus tree that has, to my information, about 4 various kinds of citrus [laughter] which were grafted all onto one tree, and proper subsequent to it, a really prolific lemon tree. And so I’ve been actually fortunate to have this abundance accessible to me.
Additionally, I reside a few mile down the street from somebody that I used to collaborate with fairly a bit after I was on the Brooklyn Botanic Backyard because the rosarian. And he’s the proprietor of former Classic Gardens and nursery that specialised in heirloom roses. Now it’s develop into a nonprofit, they usually do rose gross sales on web site twice a 12 months. And so I’ve been very fortunate to have the ability to resume a detailed friendship with Gregg Lowery, who’s the rosarian of classic gardens, and purchase a number of the most wonderful roses that you possibly can ever develop right here in a really totally different local weather. So I’ve about 50-plus roses that I’m-
Margaret: Oh expensive! [Laughter.] It’s addictive. It’s addictive.
Sarah: The obsession, I don’t suppose it ever goes away, however it’s been actually attention-grabbing as a result of the local weather is so totally different. The roses, their habits, their blooms, the way you prune and maintain them whenever you prune and maintain them is a totally totally different schedule. And typically roses that I grew for a few years and have become very acquainted with, typically it’s laborious for me to even acknowledge them right here as a result of they’re 5 instances the scale of what they had been in New York, or they bloom not simply as soon as in the course of the spring, however two extra instances, within the late summer season after which once more in early winter. And it’s an entire totally different world, and I’m having quite a lot of enjoyable with it.
Margaret: Good. Properly, perhaps we’ll get again to the backyard just a little in just a little bit [laughter], however I wish to ask you, I wish to say perhaps it was, I believe it was round 2018, I learn a ebook by a professor at North Carolina State known as Rob Dunn, and perhaps you’ve learn the ebook, you’ve heard of the ebook, known as “By no means Dwelling Alone” [affiliate link]. I don’t know in the event you’ve ever heard of it. And I considered you because-
Sarah: I haven’t.
Margaret: Oh, properly, you’ve bought to get it. It’s fabulous. So moreover bringing to gentle all the residing creatures that we inadvertently share our properties with—crickets within the cellar and silverfish and a zillion sorts of spiders and this and that and the opposite factor, all these arthropods and so forth—we additionally reside with microbes, like in our sourdough starter.
And one chapter within the ebook is that this story of this experiment the place he’s simply actually fascinated with the microbes in sourdough, and he develops an experiment working with some bread-flour firm or F-L-O-U-R firm or bread firm or one thing in, I believe it was Germany or Belgium or someplace. Anyway, to do that check, this experiment, they introduced collectively a bunch of sourdough specialists, knowledgeable bakers, from everywhere in the world to this kind of suite of check kitchens, as I recall, they gave them equivalent substances to create their starter. So that they have these laboratory-like kitchens, equivalent substances, the identical flour, every thing the identical.
However in fact when the starters had been finished, none of them had been the identical. None of them had the identical, I don’t know in the event you would name it taste or scent, as a result of what I believe is, and perhaps it’s in Korea, it’s generally known as “hand taste” due to the microbes of us. [Laughter.] Sourdough’s alive, and so are we.
I imply, I’m sorry, that’s kind of a long-winded story, however it simply delighted me a lot, the concept that there’s this signature in working with sourdough, proper?
Sarah: Sure, completely.
Margaret: So I needed you to inform me just a little bit about that, if that kind of resonated with you.
Sarah: It does. And in reality, I had forgotten that I had labored with a scientist named Erin McKinney, who can also be a lecturer and scientist at North Carolina State College, who has labored with Rob Dunn. We had been in a position to do a workshop collectively in 2019 in North Carolina. And it was fascinating to me, as a result of she actually introduced the scientific ingredient to one thing that I typically strategy very intuitively, no less than at this level in my baking apply.
But it surely’s so fascinating as a result of we’re studying a lot extra about this microbial world. And as a gardener, I believe that there was quite a lot of traction when it comes to understanding and studying extra in regards to the relationships that crops have with soil microbes. And that’s actually the place I began with my understanding of sourdough, was having this appreciation for the unseen world of soil, after which studying learn how to apply these ideas to a sourdough starter.
However luckily, we have now many alternative collaborations and labs and universities which can be working towards additional understanding these relationships. And Erin McKinney helped me perceive that inside a sourdough tradition, typically after I educate about it, I converse of it, I kind of scale back it right down to micro organism and yeast, however she actually helped me perceive that there might be as much as 70 totally different microbes, species and subspecies of microbes, inside one tradition.
And that tradition, that sourdough tradition, is influenced by a lot by the baker themselves, whether or not they’re a gardener, whether or not they have pets [laughter], all these totally different facets that we might or might not take into consideration each day. However all of that contributes to, such as you mentioned, the signature taste.
Margaret: And in that experiment, additionally they swabbed the arms of every baker, and you possibly can inform whose starter was whose from that as properly. [Laughter.] The chemistry was the identical. It’s loopy. It’s completely loopy. It’s fantastic. And it’s alive, proper? It’s actually alive. And also you write about within the ebook that’s simply out once more within the tenth anniversary version, the ebook “Sourdough”—you encourage every of us to expertise sourdough in all of its 4 seasons, since you say that we must always attempt to see firsthand how our starter modifications character in every of these seasons. Once more, it’s alive; it’s not the identical on a chilly wintry day, a dry day as it’s within the humid warmth of summer season. And so inform us just a little bit about that. So it modifications too, proper, even the identical starter modifications?
Sarah: Sure, the composition of the starter, the habits of the starter, modifications, and the way in which that we should reply to that additionally, in fact, modifications, relying upon what our desired consequence is. And within the ebook, there are a lot of totally different recipes. A few of them use starter as a leavening agent, and a number of the recipes use it extra as an ingredient.
However if you end up utilizing sourdough starter as a leavening agent, you are attempting to encourage the exercise of each yeast and micro organism and the yeast particularly, the byproduct of yeast fermentation is carbon dioxide gasoline, and that’s what leavens our bread. So if we’re making bread, if that’s the specified consequence is to have a loaf that has a superb rise and a superb oven spring, and hastily it’s turned chilly and wet—which has occurred immediately as we’re recording this podcast, we bought the primary rain of the season; very thrilling—hen we actually must take into accounts how the temperature and the humidity and all of those totally different environmental components are going to affect the pace through which our dough ferments.
Margaret: So in studying to be not a grasp, however extra skilled with sourdough, one has to be aware of these items, has to patiently observe, I assume, and really feel our means by means of it, proper? I imply, as a result of it’s not simply one thing you’ll be able to say, “Put a cup of this and put a tablespoon of that and a quart of this, and there you go; put it in a 350 oven. Thanks very a lot.” [Laughter.]
It’s about percentages, proper? It’s not that means. It’s about percentages—you name it “the baker’s math” within the ebook—with sourdough, that each ingredient is expressed as a proportion of the entire weight, the entire weight of the flour that’s thought-about the 100%, the flour weight. And the way a lot hydration the starter has, and oh my goodness. [laughter]. So we actually must be open to studying and understanding and embracing, once more, this very thrilling, very versatile residing factor that may accomplish that a lot. And as you say, not simply to make bread rise, however as a taste, as an ingredient as properly in different recipes. Fairly fascinating stuff.
Sarah: It’s. It’s. And it’s one thing that I believe it requires presence, and I discover that gardening and baking, they’ve so many parallels. And this requirement of us to essentially be current with a dough and be observant and absorb what the dough is attempting to inform us, along with simply merely the craft of studying baking, they’re sort of two various things.
And I believe that I actually attempt to encourage people who’ve by no means baked bread earlier than, whether or not with sourdough or with yeast, to essentially begin with a recipe that speaks to them that appears interesting, that appears scrumptious, and repeat that recipe many alternative instances in the event you can, to simply purchase the abilities which can be needed. And that is one thing that whether or not you’re studying ceramics or gardening or baking, you need to be taught the approach or the talent earlier than you’ll be able to actually perceive the nuance of one thing or learn to reply to one thing intuitively.
Margaret: Yeah, hopefully you get a rhythm, you get a groove, you discover your means with it, after which after getting that, you’ll be able to experiment just a little extra [laughter].
Sarah: And you may make it as sophisticated as you need at that time.
Margaret: And we do, and we typically do. So I’m together with this hyperlink to our kind of classic dialog from, once more, nearly 10 years in the past, like I spoke about within the introduction, of the particular how-to of a starter making, so that folks would possibly prefer to hearken to that and be a recipe and so forth as properly.
However I used to be curious, you say within the begin of the tenth anniversary version, that one factor that has modified loads is the provision in these ensuing 10 years is the provision of various sorts of flours then had been accessible again then. Does that, after which does that imply totally different starters? Inform us just a little bit about kind of what’s occurring with flowers and does that have an effect on the starters? And each time I say flours, talking to you as a gardener, I wish to spell it out once more. I’m sorry. It simply retains sounding unsuitable to me [laughter]. [Below, from the book, Tomato and Labneh Galette.]
Sarah: Yeah, flours and flowers, yeah. Yeah, completely. It positively has influenced the choice that we have now. And I ought to say that this could possibly be an entire podcast dialog, however what we’ve seen over the past 10 years particularly right here within the U.S. and I believe additionally all through the world, is that this transferring towards smaller programs of agriculture which have allowed communities in several climates to develop extra particularly climate-appropriate grains for his or her area.
And never all wheat is made the identical. I used to be simply in Italy, in Southern Italy, the place durum wheat is the predominant kind of wheat grown there, due to its very dry, drought-like circumstances in the course of the summer season and really intense warmth. That kind of wheat wouldn’t do very properly in a moist, humid atmosphere in the course of the summers of British Columbia, for instance.
And so these numerous smaller-farm programs have moved towards very particular varieties of grains, whether or not it’s wheat or rye, barley or different varieties of grains. And people grains have gotten extra accessible to bakers, additionally being milled in very other ways. So we’ve primarily discovered baking over the past 150 years from roller-milled flour. It is a very industrial course of. And now we’re seeing these smaller farming programs turning to stone milling, and stone milling can retain all components of the grain: the bran, the germ the place all the taste and the oils reside, and in addition the endosperm.
And so once we’re getting whole-grain flour, that’s been grown organically and stone milled, this sort of flour, you’ll be able to think about how the microbes in a starter are going to answer this sort of flour. There’s a lot meals [laughter] accessible to our starters, to our dough. Fascinating.
So fermentation actually goes loopy whenever you feed a starter that’s been used to being fed with store-bought industrial flour that you simply purchase off the shelf, and then you definitely feed it stone-ground, freshly milled whole-grain flour, the starter simply sort of explodes in exercise [laughter]. And in the event you’re used to it taking eight hours to double in measurement, hastily it takes 4 to 6 hours on the identical temperature.
It’s an entire different creature, not simply in its habits, its fermentation habits, but additionally in its taste, once more, since you’re retaining with the stone milling. And sometimes these smaller programs are turning towards, not at all times, however typically turning towards heirloom sorts of grains that had been actually grown extra for taste than for yield.
Then we’re additionally getting these actually complicated flavors and even colours of bread that we haven’t seen earlier than. And so it’s an entire different world. It’s like a painter that solely had crimson, blue, and inexperienced of their palette, and now there’s like 25 totally different colours to play with [laughter]. It’s a completely totally different canvas. It’s a completely totally different panorama.
And so I believe after I wrote “Sourdough,” after I wrote my first ebook, I used to be starting to play with a few of these flowers. I used to be starting to work with einkorn and emmer and spelt, and a few of these are positively featured within the ebook. However now we’re seeing a lot higher entry to those various kinds of flours, and it’s actually a really thrilling time to be baking. [Below, from the book, Savory Kale Scones.]
Margaret: Undoubtedly. I simply needed to ask you, do you could have a one starter [laughter] and it might service all of those totally different flowers, or do you need to have now… Have you learnt what I imply?
Sarah: I do. I’ve one, have one starter. Typically I do preserve two starters. Typically I’ll preserve a brown rice starter to make gluten-free breads, after which a wheat starter. Once I was in New York the final 5 to seven years I used to be in New York, I stored primarily a rye-fed starter. And after I moved to California, I believe my starter was just a little upset with me as a result of it simply went, it turned very unusual. It was a wierd taste. It was a wierd odor. So I switched after I moved to California to feeding my starter with complete wheat.
And I’ve stored it since 2021. I’ve stored the identical starter fed primarily with complete wheat. And that starter, I journey loads now to show, and after I journey, I journey with it as a stiff starter. And I seek advice from it as Stiffy, and I revive Stiffy wherever I am going utilizing regardless of the native flour is. After which I work with that starter in that location. After which on the finish of the workshop or the retreat, I then create one other stiff starter. I carry it again with me to California.
And on this means, I really feel like I’m incorporating the microbial footprint of all over the place that I’ve been, along with the footprint of my dwelling in California and the flours that I exploit right here. And it’s develop into a really resilient, very lively starter. And it’s been fascinating to observe it. I nearly wish to create a journey weblog [laughter] simply based mostly round The Adventures of Stiffy as a result of it’s such a creature. Loopy.
Margaret: Properly, it’s been enjoyable to speak to you once more, and I hope we received’t wait one other 10 years. Sarah Owens, writer of “Sourdough,” which is simply popping out in its tenth anniversary version. And I’ll speak to you quickly once more, I hope.
learn how to make sourdough starter
enter to win a replica of ‘sourdough’
I’LL BUY a replica of the tenth anniversary version of “Sourdough: Recipes for Rustic Fermented Breads, Sweets, Savories and Extra” by Sarah Owens for one fortunate reader. All you need to do to enter is reply this query within the feedback field beneath:
Have you ever ever baked with a sourdough starter? Inform us!
No reply, or feeling shy? Simply say one thing like “rely me in” and I’ll, however a reply is even higher. I’ll choose a random winner after entries shut Tuesday Oct. 14, 2025 at midnight. Good luck to all.
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