A COUPLE OF RAVENS have been shouting at one another throughout the backyard every day this spring-into-summer, and their loud-mouthed antics jogged my memory of a considerably much less bawdy dialog about crows and ravens that I had a decade in the past on the podcast with ornithologist Dr. John Marzluff—a dialog I wish to reprise.
Possessing massive brains for his or her physique measurement, a knack for social networking that requires no web connection, and eager powers of commentary, crows and ravens are among the many huge personalities of the fowl phrase.
They’re additionally Dr. Marzluff calls, “black-feathered practitioners of lifelong studying,” and from him I discovered in regards to the capability of their avian brains and the vary of issues it permits them to do–from the humorous to the daring, a lot of it nearly unbelievable.
Dr. Marzluff is a famend ornithologist and concrete ecologist, and professor emeritus of wildlife sciences on the College of Washington. He’s writer numerous books, together with ones about his space of explicit experience, the corvids—crows, ravens, jays and their family. Across the time that we recorded this dialog, I had simply learn the e-book he created in collaboration with illustrator Tony Angell known as “Items of the Crow: How Notion, Emotion, and Thought Enable Sensible Birds to Behave Like People” (affiliate hyperlink), which was the topic of our 2015 dialogue.
Plus: Remark within the field close to the underside of the web page for an opportunity to win a replica of “Items of the Crow.”
Learn alongside as you hearken to the July 7, 2025 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant beneath. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).
my crow and raven q&a with dr. john marzluff
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Q. It has been raining right here right this moment. We haven’t had a lot rain within the Northeast currently, although I do know you’ve been having loopy, loopy rain within the Pacific Northwest.
A. It is vitally, very moist.
Q. Searching the window right this moment, I used to be considering: How do birds keep dry, anyway? There may be at all times a query in regards to the birds; I’ve infinite questions on them.
A. They’ve bought, happily, very good oil glands, and so they simply coat themselves with a sheen of oil and many of the rain simply beads proper off of their again and rolls off.
Q. Sensible fowl—or well-built birds.
The corvids—the crows, the ravens. I really like these birds, and contemplate it a deal with when a flock of crows come calling or a raven leaves its distinctive tracks within the snow.
I suppose I’ve to ask the boring query first: Who’s who? How can we inform crow and ravens aside?
A. The raven is a a lot greater cousin of the crow. They’re in the identical genus [Corvus], and so they’re intently associated and share quite a lot of traits due to that. However the voice is the simplest attribute. In the event you can hear them, the crow is principally going to caw, and the raven goes to quark, and drip like a faucet and bark like a canine, and make plenty of different kinds of noises.
Q. [Laughter.]
A. Being about twice the scale, and having a few 4-foot wingspan, the raven actually dwarfs the crow if you see them aspect by aspect. Its tail can also be extra formed like a diamond, and it’s bought extra of a beard round its throat from its lanceolate feathers there.
Q. I really feel like I see crows in numbers, and ravens in onesies and twosies. Is that an incorrect assumption, or a attribute?
A. That’s fairly attribute. Ravens and crows each mate and kind monogamous, lifelong pair bonds, however the raven rapidly kicks its child out of the territory and the pair patrols that territory. [Laughter.] You sometimes simply see the pair.
Q. Is the raven our largest songbird?
A. It’s the biggest songbird on this planet. Technically it’s a songbird due to advanced throat musculature that it has.
Q. It has a syrinx?
A. All birds have a syrinx. It has a junction field there between the 2 branches of the bronchi that go to the lungs, and it’s the place the voice is produced. However the factor that the songbirds have that the others don’t are very advanced muscle mass that wrap round that syrinx in order that it could actually warp and pull and stretch in so some ways to make such a variable quantity of noise.
Q. Attention-grabbing. The subheading of the e-book “Items of the Crow” reads, “How Notion, Emotion, and Thought Enable Sensible Birds to Behave Like People.” Numerous occasions as I used to be studying the e-book I used to be flashing on a Nationwide Geographic collection from just a few years in the past known as “Monkey Thieves” in regards to the troupes of rhesus macaque monkeys of Jaipur, India, and considering these corvids remind me of these monkeys! [Laughter.]
In truth within the e-book you do observe a number of features of avian cognition seen in these birds that scientists had thought for a very long time solely people and a few monkeys possessed–like perception, for example.
A. Perception has at all times been one of many hallmarks of primates. The thought right here is which you could have a look at an issue and intuit the answer, principally see the steps which can be required to unravel this drawback. So think about meals hanging from a string, or buried in a tube you can not attain. You would possibly begin considering, “How can I place that tube, or might I exploit a software to get at that meals that’s in there?”
Monkeys after all will resolve that drawback, however crows do as properly. Relying on the species, some, just like the New Caledonian crow would style a software to get that meals out—and so they do it nearly immediately once they see the issue.
Others would possibly drop issues into water to boost the extent and float meals as much as them, or use different kinds of superior methods to get on the answer to an issue. [Above, New Caledonian crow making a hooked tool from straight piece of wire.]
Q. Superb. You additionally say within the e-book that they are often observers of physique language and the intent of different people, or different creatures.
A. We did some experiments right here with our American crows that stay right here in Seattle, and so they’re fairly tame right here. You possibly can sometimes get fairly near them within the metropolis. However in the event you lunge at them and even in the event you simply have a look at them as you strategy, they’re a very totally different fowl. They’ll stand away, they’ll transfer away; they perceive that you’re paying them some consideration and due to this fact it might be good or it might be dangerous, however they’re not going to take the danger.
Q. Till the Sixties, you write, birds have been thought to be simpletons by scientists, like that expression “birdbrain.” You don’t suppose birdbrain is a slur, do you? [Above, another video example of birds’ ingenuity in making tools.]
A. It’s a praise of the very best order, to make sure.
Q. In among the corvids, their brains are notably massive for his or her physique measurement.
A. It’s necessary to grasp that it’s relative to their physique measurement. The mind of a crow is in regards to the measurement of your thumb, however the fowl solely weighs lower than a pound. So it’s a big mind relative to its physique measurement. Examine it to one thing like an ostrich—which is the opposite excessive for a fowl. A really huge physique, however in all probability not the brightest fowl on the market. However crows and ravens, their brains are way more for his or her physique measurement on line with what we might contemplate the small monkeys to have. They’re actually extra like a primate when it comes to the quantity of brainpower they’ll carry to an issue.
Q. Mammals and birds each hint again to identical reptilian mind—we’ve got a typical ancestry, don’t we?
A. That’s the one level we attempt to make within the e-book. A few of the belongings you see and the way you interpret them do appear implausible. But it surely all comes again to the similarity we’ve got in not solely our brains, however the explicit nerve cells in our brains—the transmitters that permit us to speak between nerve cells within the mind and kind advanced reminiscences. That each one goes again to this reptilian heritage that mammals and reptiles and birds all share.
Q. So attention-grabbing. Did weight loss program—or does weight loss program—need to do with how developed sure of the corvids’ brains have turn out to be? As a result of they love meals, don’t they? [Laughter.]
A. It’s concerned, and so they’ll do something to get at meals.
It’s nearly to flip that round a bit: As a result of they’ve a big mind in addition they need to seize quite a lot of vitality day by day. In order that they need to have a high-quality weight loss program, or a minimum of quite a lot of no matter they’re consuming.
The mind is the costliest organ within the physique for us in addition to every other vertebrate. It takes a ton of vitality, and when you’ve a giant one, you’re sacrificing the necessity to do different issues as an alternative of getting meals. You’re sacrificing that and buying and selling it off with the power to do issues very effectively with that mind.
Q. We’ve been speaking about ravens, and crows, and so they produce other family just like the jays. Have they got related diets, or eat distinctive issues?
A. They’re very totally different. I’d say that throughout the corvids typically, and there are about 140 species there, some are excessive specialists. The pinyon jay, for instance, eats primarily pine seeds. It shops pine seeds by means of to the autumn to gasoline its economic system all winter and spring. Different birds just like the raven and generalists, and so they’ll eat something that strikes or lies round too lengthy [laughter]—they’re going to eat it.
Some are very versatile in weight loss program, and others are very specialised. The attention-grabbing factor is that specialization has pushed some components of the mind of those birds to be unbelievable—just like the pinyon jay I discussed has to recollect the place it places all these seeds. So it has a really massive hippocampus, a part of its mind that’s chargeable for spatial reminiscence.
The raven has bought to unravel plenty of totally different issues and determine plenty of totally different meals out, so it has a big basic forebrain.
Q. You write in “Items of the Crow” that everybody at all times has a crow story, and I believe if you go to cocktail events everyone needs to let you know theirs.
A. Sure.
Q. [Laughter.] Relatively than let you know that I needed to ask about one other corvid I appear to draw so much, the blue jay—not an uncommon fowl in my rural spot. Considered one of my peculiarities amongst many is that as a result of nature at all times cleans its plate, I waste nothing—together with mice from traps within the cellar or barn or shed. I simply put them outdoors, and by the following morning somebody takes it away.
The opposite day I tossed one out onto the garden, and went inside, and inside minutes one thing caught my eye, and it was a blue jay that got here and stabbed on the mouse and pushed it round at it for a minute, then lifted off and left with it. I didn’t notice they have been omnivores or carrion eaters.
A. I’d say even probably the most specialised seed eaters—and the blue jay is towards that line, and focuses on acorns for probably the most half. However even these which can be specialised within the corvids, they’ll at all times take matter like that. They’ll take a small mouse, a small fowl, an egg, a small snake or frog. Once more form of getting again to your first level in regards to the high quality of the weight loss program, and that’s excessive vitality, excessive fats and protein that’s coming in with a small animal like that. That basically helps them meet their energetic wants.
Q. Final winter I noticed a primary with the blue jays once more, once they pecked light-colored latex paint off my entrance porch and would disappear with items of paint. And eggshells as properly, which I put out for them—inside moments, they choose them up and fly away with them. Have they got a crop the place they’ll stash issues, or a pouch?
A. The blue jay’s bought what we name an expandable throat, which might maintain a few acorns. Once you get into one thing just like the Clark’s nutcracker, they’ve a particular pouch that’s an area underneath their tongue that opens up like a pelican’s pouch, and so they can put 150 or so pine seeds in that factor and fly off with it.
So throughout the corvids you see these totally different diversifications to their other ways of life, and once more the blue jay is extra basic—so it hasn’t dedicated all the way in which to a throat pouch, but it surely’s definitely bought some elasticity there to assist it carry a giant load.
Q. The casual verb “rook”–that means to take cash from somebody by fooling or dishonest them—and it’s additionally the identify for a species of corvid. No coincidence, right?
A. I believe it’s undoubtedly associated, sure. [Laughter.]
Q. There’s a chapter within the e-book known as “Delinquency.” [Laughter.] Let’s discuss that just a little.
A. The rook is a fairly massive corvid, kind of midway between a raven and a crow in measurement that lives in northern Europe. It’s intently tied to agricultural lands. It probes round for worms, for probably the most half. However they’re very eager on getting meals and hiding it, and conserving it hidden from others. They attempt to deceive others when it comes to the place they put meals for later use. I’d guess that they in all probability stole issues that have been laying across the farm—not simply vegetation, however shiny issues as properly. Which may have led to that saying.
Q. As I discussed, there’s a chapter within the e-book known as “Delinquency,” and a beautiful anecdote about windshield wipers, and delinquent crows.
A. It’s not an remoted incident. The attention-grabbing factor is that evidently corvids have just a little little bit of a penchant for windshield wipers all around the globe. Out right here within the Northern Cascades, I bought a name from the Nationwide Park Service that was involved with campers there. They have been having their windshield wipers stolen whereas they have been climbing or sleeping, and so they have been afraid that individuals would have an accident in the event that they bought of their automobile and didn’t notice their wipers have been gone and hit a wet day like right this moment.
They found out that it was a raven that was stealing these windshield wipers [laughter], and so they had no concepts why, or what number of birds have been concerned. My daughter and I went up there to start out catching the ravens and tagging them and seeing who was taking part, and possibly determining why they have been doing this.
Lengthy story quick: It was a pair of ravens that lived proper round this customer middle that was the perpetrator, and the oldsters on the park had already named it Hitchcock, and so they have been involved once more with the harm it was doing.
We tried to make use of its huge mind to our benefit, and we captured the fowl, Hitchcock and its mate. We captured them in a parking zone the place vehicles are susceptible to having their windshield wipers taken, and we banded the fowl proper on a windshield.
Q. Oh!
A. That’s an uncomfortable factor for a raven. They’re being held by us. Sometimes we attempt to be as calm and hold the birds at nighttime as a lot as potential, however we didn’t this time. We let him look full-on on the windshield the entire time we have been placing a band on his leg and measuring him, and tagging him for our scientific use later. After which we let him go. However we hoped that he would kind a posh reminiscence of that dangerous factor—that man holding me, and taking a look at a windshield wiper and being on this space—and cease messing with windshield wipers from then on.
And certainly the habits declined. It doesn’t happen now in any respect, and people birds are nonetheless round. We’ve been capable of make the most of the birds’ mind to show it what’s not acceptable on this setting, and permit the fowl to stay there and hold different ravens that may choose up the behavior from coming in as properly.
The opposite various was simply to kill the fowl and take away it.
Q. And other people do this; they get infuriated with birds and destroy them.
A. There are different options, and this was an instance.
Q. You stated the birds are nonetheless there. How lengthy do crows and ravens stay?
A. The longest on document are someplace within the 15- or 20-year vary, as a result of it’s important to have a fowl banded to observe it, and actually know its actual age. In the event you do the calculations primarily based on their annual charge of mortality, which may be very low—lower than 5 %—definitely there are some birds on the market which can be 20, 30 or possibly even 40 years previous on the market within the wild.
Q. Wow. With the windshield-wiper kleptomania, you stated it’s not simply that one incident?
A. It’s been reported in a number of nationwide parks within the West. It’s been reported in Australia with a unique species there. For some purpose, these birds actually like rubber. Possibly the pliable nature is form of like an animal pores and skin, and so they tug at it—and that’s one thing that they discover probably resulting in meals, or that they discover attention-grabbing or stimulating to the touch. We’re probably not positive why they do it.
Q. I’m at all times wowed by tales about crows’ potential for facial recognition. Can we discuss Dick Cheney for a minute? [Laughter.]
A. That is humorous. It was an experiment we devised, as a result of at any time when we research the birds round right here, we climb to their nests to band their infants. Or we’d catch them to band or tag them. We at all times felt that the birds knew us after that; they acted otherwise. Some have been extra aggressive; some have been extra cautious round us after we had watched them awhile.
So we examined that concept instantly. The thought we had was to catch just a few birds—and the way in which we catch them is by taking pictures a internet over them. In order that’s a scary scenario once more. Once we ran as much as get the birds out of the web to band them and tag them, we wore a specific masks.
In our case, the damaging man wore a caveman’s face. So the birds as they have been having this tough expertise with us, they have been taking a look at a caveman your entire time.
Our concept was then anyone might put on this caveman’s masks later, and stroll by means of the place we caught birds. We might see if these birds actually reply otherwise, and it wasn’t simply us considering that. As a result of anyone might do it.
We additionally needed to check the response to us carrying a unique masks—and that’s the place the Dick Cheney is available in. [Laughter.]
Dick Cheney was the vp on the time, so his masks was on sale within the web, and I bought a pair. We now stroll round campus as Dick Cheney or the caveman, and see if the birds can inform us aside.
Q. They usually can, sure?
A. They usually can, and so they have been for 9 years now. So that is an instance not simply of advantageous discrimination—to inform these two aside—but additionally social studying. Birds which can be capable of inform these masks aside now weren’t even born when the caveman did something incorrect.
They’ve discovered from seeing others who have been round reveal that this man is dangerous.
Q. Moreover being gifted in these methods we’ve been speaking about, crows are inclined to provide presents—you talked about shiny objects earlier. Have you ever ever obtained any your self?
A. Personally I’ve by no means gotten a present from a crow, in all probability as a result of I do extra scary issues to them than nice issues to them. However I’ve been gifted by studying about these treasures that many individuals get, and I’ve seen many of those treasures—and I’ve seen video of the birds holding this stuff now.
What it appears like are pretty younger birds in all probability, or maybe birds that don’t have a mate which can be courting a human on this case actually as a social associate. Possibly a mate, however a minimum of as a social associate.
They offer issues like trinkets from lockets, or necklaces or keys, or pencil erasers, or shiny rocks and items of glass are quite common that individuals get. It occurs the place both somebody’s finished a crow a very good deed like free it from a entice, or the place they’ve been feeding them constantly.
Q. I adore it. I’m so glad you might be a part of me once more to inform us in regards to the presents of the crow.(Black-and-white illustrations from “The Items of the Crow” are by co-author Tony Angell.)
extra from john marzluff
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I’LL BUY A COPY of “Items of the Crow” by Dr. John Marzluff for a fortunate reader. All it’s important to do to enter is reply this query within the feedback field beneath, all the way in which on the very backside of the web page after the final reader remark:
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