the high line’s naturalistic gardening lessons, with richard hayden

IT’S ONE of the best-known naturalistic gardens anyplace, and but it’s perched in essentially the most unnatural spot conceivable, 30 ft excessive above New York Metropolis site visitors on an deserted elevated railway line. The Excessive Line on Manhattan’s West Facet is celebrating the fifteenth anniversary of the opening of its first part, years which were full of knowledgeable classes on gardening on this looser, nature-inspired type.

At present’s visitor is Richard Hayden, the Excessive Line’s senior director of horticulture. His staff of 10 horticulturists manages the naturalistic gardens, initially designed by Piet Oudolf of the Netherlands, spanning parts of the 1.5-mile beloved park that welcomes about 7 million guests a 12 months.

Learn alongside as you hearken to the July 8, 2024 version of my public-radio present and podcast utilizing the participant under. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).

classes in naturalistic gardening, with richard hayden

Margaret Roach: So pleased anniversary, birthday—no matter we need to name it, to you and the staff.

Richard Hayden: Thanks.

Margaret: It was enjoyable assembly a few of you, no less than nearly, to do a current “New York Instances” backyard column collectively, which received an incredible response, which made me pleased. So briefly, I believe for people who find themselves listening from far and wide who could not have visited, inform us the lay of the non-land over there [laughter]. I imply, it’s a nutty setup when you concentrate on it.

Richard: When you concentrate on it altogether, the truth that it occurred in any respect is usually a miracle. So in fact, it was an unused, elevated railway on the West Facet of Manhattan. And over the course of the 20 years that the trains weren’t working, seeds had drifted in and birds had most likely dropped a couple of issues off and soil had gotten created, and so this panorama had occurred.

And when the time got here to think about what to do with it within the late ’90s, the concept it may change into a backyard as a result of folks have been up right here taking a look at it in its wild state, and there have been some superb pictures taken by Joel Sternfeld of its wild state that it grew to become this concept that it may very well be a backyard. And Piet Oudolf was employed and Subject Operations and Diller Scofidio + Renfro did some nice designs.

And right here we’re 15 years later, and it’s, I believe some of the vital public gardens of the twenty first century, as a result of it modified the way in which we take into consideration how we backyard. It’s the 4 season backyard. As Piet says, “a plant isn’t price rising until it appears good lifeless.” [Laughter.] And it’s true. It’s so lovely right here within the fall and within the winter, nevertheless it’s three-dimensional backyard chess that he performs as a result of every zone is barely totally different.

And it offers you this emotionally evocative journey as you go from woodlands to grasslands and totally different combos and complexities. And naturally, all that complexity results in biodiversity. We have now many bees and birds and different animals that go to. So it’s only a actually great respite from town.

Margaret: And the factor that once we did the Instances story that I simply discovered once you first mentioned it to me and I simply can’t recover from the concept of it, you’ve gotten your soil depth up there and these beds that have been constructed for this on this elevated railway, the soil is rarely what, greater than 18 inches deep? I imply, it’s like raised beds [above, during pruning season] on a raised railroad platform.

Richard: You’re proper. It’s primarily 18 inches. There’s a pair spots the place we’ve received some raised planters that we mound up and perhaps get to 30 inches or so. And I’ve to inform you, after I first began, which was about a little bit over two and a half years in the past, and I used to be seeing these 30-foot-tall birch timber and oak timber and all these massive timber rising in 18 inches of soil, it actually stored me up at evening. Each time the wind would blow…

Margaret: I’d have a panic assault on the considered it. Precisely.

Richard: After which I did some mountain climbing in Northwest Connecticut on the Appalachian Path, and there had been a windstorm, and these mature timber had blown over. And lo and behold, 18 inches of roots due to the entire glacial rock. The forest was actually rising in 18 inches of soil. And I assumed, what? Mom Nature’s figured this out. I don’t have to fret a lot.

Margaret: O.Ok., so you bought began sleeping, good [laughter].

Richard: Sure, precisely.

Margaret: However it’s. It’s actually fairly a feat and it’s nice that it was impressed by that self-sown insanity that had occurred on this deserted house.

Richard: Precisely, precisely, clearly with an inventive eye. And the issue with 18 inches is that it doesn’t… As a result of there could be heat air on high and heat air beneath, and chilly air on high and chilly air beneath, so we don’t have loads of cushion.

Margaret: No.

Richard: So throughout warmth waves, as an example, we’ve to be very cautious to maintain issues with the suitable moisture ranges. After which within the winter generally, we do lose a couple of issues if we’ve a moist chilly snap or one thing. So it does make challenges for that means.

Margaret: So Piet designed it in a naturalistic type, and he’s sort of the chief of that motion. However it doesn’t imply that it’s all native. And it additionally doesn’t imply, naturalistic doesn’t imply, like hands-off, let it do its factor; no matter occurs, occurs. It’s a design. So let’s discuss a little bit bit about that.

Richard: Proper. So it’s about 50 % native. We did a beautiful hort celebration final 12 months the place we honored New York Metropolis native vegetation, and we discovered we had 160 species that have been native or recognized to be native to New York Metropolis out of the five hundred or so species that we’ve. They usually weren’t chosen as a result of they have been native, they have been chosen as a result of they’re simply actually good, resilient vegetation. So I used to be pleased to try this discovery.

And Piet may be very a lot about gardens are for folks, and so natives are nice, however generally there are bloom intervals the place the natives actually aren’t filling the area of interest or perhaps they don’t have sufficient winter construction. He’s pleased to mix issues so long as they’re well-behaved, and we’ve a couple of that haven’t been so well-behaved. So it’s a studying curve.

Margaret: [Laughter.] Don’t all of us, Richard? Don’t all of us have a couple of of these?

Richard: Properly, to be a profitable plant on the Excessive Line, it’s a must to have a certain quantity of resilience, a certain quantity of aggression. And so loads of what we do is handle these. We have now a grass, Korean feather grass that was planted in a single space, and I observed in some pictures, in about three years after it was planted, it had been 20 % of the combo. And three years later, it was 80 % of the combo as a result of it’s simply such a virulent reseeder. That’s one of many issues we’ve to do, is we’ve to handle these issues that need to be too profitable, in order that they don’t swallow their neighbors. Maintain the stability.

Margaret: Properly, and so a number of the techniques that he prompt within the preliminary design and that you just and your staff uphold and so forth to be naturalistic… I imply, as an example, there was one that actually you guys talked to me about through the Instances story interview, which, in fact, it didn’t actually happen to me. I wouldn’t have observed it consciously, however there it’s and it’s so apparent now that you’ve got mentioned it aloud to me.

When you’ve gotten the backyard on either side of a path, that these drifts of vegetation which can be on the one facet additionally ought to generally be on the opposite facet in order that it appears as if the trail was added by a pure space versus… Yeah, this continuity versus these are two separate gardens and right here is my path, extra artifical. And simply all these hints like that. Any others like that that you concentrate on? Properly, let’s discuss concerning the drifts perhaps as a result of that’s an vital side of his sorts of designs and naturalistic type.

Richard: Properly, it’s attention-grabbing as a result of it could be really easy to get these tremendous advanced gardens with numerous vegetation showing all subsequent to one another. However once you’re utilizing nature as a mannequin, nature tends to not… I imply, it may be a really thick planting, however usually it’s a repetition of a sequence of species. In order that’s what Piet has replicated. He’ll select what he calls his main accent vegetation. After which the Excessive Line backyard is definitely what he would think about a matrix backyard. So it’s a planting of a groundcover layer, usually flowering.

So you may have issues like autumn moor grass or catmint and different issues that can simply offer you a foundation a floor cowl, and that’s the type of factor that you just’ll see usually drifting on either side of the trail. After which into which can be the bigger perennials that happen in threes and fives and sevens. All the time odd numbers for some cause, nevertheless it does all the time appears higher. However he retains it easy. By preserving the drifts massive, it turns into a little bit bit extra legible.

After which most of the new gardens that he does are literally block planting the place it’s simply sequence of blocks, clearly by no means a geometrical form, extra of a tear form or some type of a extra pure form. However he does that fairly incessantly together with his newer gardens, as a result of it’s simpler to care for. You already know what’s imagined to be the place, what’s gotten out of stability.

Margaret: I see.

Richard: However right here on the Excessive Line, we’re a little bit bit extra advanced, so we’re continually managing the dynamics of anybody species. Some issues they don’t succeed. We had a few vegetation. I’m very a lot into Helenium, and I’m forgetting widespread names.

Margaret: Sneezeweed [laughter].

Richard: Sneezeweed, proper, sure, and so they simply by no means took. And naturally, Piet doesn’t use loads of purple, and it’s sort of burgundy purple, the one which he was suggesting right here. I believe it was ‘Moerheim Magnificence.’ We simply needed to search for different issues as a result of it simply was by no means pleased.

Margaret: In his unique planting designs for the assorted backyard areas on the Excessive Line, he sort of narrows down… I imply, these are smaller areas than nature, however he narrows down the variety of key vegetation that we’ll be in, and he makes use of massive numbers of every one in these drifts and these naturalistically formed drifts. Since you don’t need it to simply be a zillion polka dots far and wide of chaos. I imply, that’s not going to learn, is it?

Richard: No. And it’s simply attention-grabbing we’re having this dialog, and I used to be simply this morning laying out a Piet Oudolf design. We have now a brand new plaza that’s getting in at road degree at 18th Avenue that’ll be the most recent part of the Excessive Line to open in September. And it’s the primary time I’ve laid out a Piet design. And we have been wanting on the plans, and it truly is, on this explicit plan, massive drifts of various sorts of grasses.

After which there’s geraniums coming in right here and geums over right here and agastaches over right here. You get a greater sense of actually what he’s doing. That is the primary time I’ve ever finished it, nevertheless it’s actually thrilling to put the backyard out and also you get a way of actually how his thoughts sort of works. You see the construction behind what he’s attempting to do.

Margaret: I suppose it was final 12 months perhaps he had a guide come out that’s about his profession, his tasks, and there have been loads of his designs in it as a part of the artwork within the guide, not simply pictures. And you may see that there, too. You possibly can see these shapes and the vegetation which can be specified to go in each and so forth.

The opposite factor I discover attention-grabbing concerning the drifts is it pleases our eye, and it really works on this type to do it that means. However in nature, in the event you had simply onesies of one million various things, the animals, particularly the bugs who’re depending on these vegetation, couldn’t discover them and couldn’t make the most of them in the identical means. So the drifts additionally serve a goal, are you aware what I imply, in nature, within the pure world.

Richard: Completely.

Margaret: These plant communities will not be simply one million totally different sorts of vegetation all crunched collectively. There are a couple of key vegetation in bigger numbers.

Richard: And in additional of the grassland plantings, as an example, he’s counting on sure vegetation to have the construction to carry different vegetation up, which is what, in fact, occurs of their pure environments as nicely.

Margaret: Yeah, the meadows and prairies are actually grasslands.

So I’m informed by lots of people who’ve tried to or who’ve gone extra naturalistic in some space of their gardens, perhaps made a small meadow or no matter, I hear, “Properly, nevertheless it retains altering. It doesn’t seem like the unique plan. It’s not how I imagined it.” [Laughter.] “It doesn’t seem like the image within the guide,” once they purchased it from a catalog, they purchased the seed or the plugs or no matter.

That’s type of that, oops, howdy succession, pure succession: the way in which issues go in nature. And so let’s discuss a little bit bit about that, as a result of that is one thing that the Excessive Line 15 years on, or any naturalistic backyard even 5 years on doesn’t look precisely just like the plan, even when it was a Piet plan [laughter].

Richard: Right. And Piet all the time says a backyard’s by no means finished. And it’s an evolution. And the backyard will inform you what it desires to change into. And so once we are the stewards of those naturalistic landscapes, we’re interrupting the succession, the succession being the pure world is shifting from a grassland to a mature forest. And that’s typically the course of the evolution of planting. And so we get to step in and say we need to preserve it as a grassland, and so we have to make these interventions.

We have to make substitutions for the vegetation that aren’t working. We have to edit out those, the thugs, if you’ll, that get too pleased. We get to be utterly stunned by the serendipity of one thing seeding in, or the mixture that you just actually weren’t sure of, nevertheless it’s sort of rearranged itself in the way in which that a number of the issues have seeded. It’s being awake to how the backyard desires to mature, and hopefully having a considerably mild contact on ensuring that you just get one thing that’s pleasing and also you’re making the suitable combos achieve success.

Margaret: However it’s loads of enhancing. I imply, it’s not simply stepping again and going, “O.Ok., that’s finished. It’s been planted. All completed. On to the subsequent undertaking.” It’s not that in any respect.

Richard: No. And a few issues actually are supposed to be fillers in an early planting. After which as soon as the grasses get established, they are going to need to change into 80 % of your meadow. And so it’s a must to perhaps have methods for eradicating a couple of, a number of the taller grasses, the large… Is it large bluestem?

Margaret: Little bluestem and… I don’t know what you name the massive one, however yeah.

Richard: Large bluestem. Which left to its personal gadgets was at one level crowding out the pathway. And so we’ve to go in and say, what? You’re nice. We want you within the again. We want you a little bit bit extra as a punctuation relatively than as a strong wall. And in order that’s the place loads of the enhancing is available in.

Margaret: Since you have been simply saying the totally different vegetation and the way they virtually have a life cycle, sure vegetation in these designs, and a few are virtually used as nurse crops, what you would possibly name nurse crops, at first to fill house with one thing apart from weeds which may come up from the soil. So a few of your biennials and so forth, they’re not going to final 5 or 10 years [laughter]. They’re not going to be there as a result of as you level out, the grasses and different issues could have crammed in.

These issues which can be depending on self-sowing aren’t going to have as many alternatives to achieve naked soil anymore and their life cycle can be over from these unique vegetation. So your black-eyed Susans or no matter that you just who have been like, “Oh, look, there’s so a lot of these. They give the impression of being so fairly,” Properly, that will not occur in 12 months 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.

Richard: Proper. This morning I used to be inserting Oriental poppy, which we don’t have on the Excessive Line. It was one of many unique vegetation that have been spec’d, nevertheless it’s a kind of early attention-grabbing flower vegetation to come back up between the small grasses for the primary two or three years. They’re not terribly long-lived in my expertise, anyway, so it’s simply a kind of let’s create some curiosity.

We had the identical with… Is it foxtail Lily? Eremurus, sure. The identical factor. Actually profitable, a beautiful Excessive Line plant within the first 5 years, however now it’s been crowded out by grasses. We tried to get it established once more, and it’s a difficult one. It’s a kind of so used to having knowledgeable drainage and sizzling, dry locations. You make sacrifices. You say, nicely, that was nice at first and now we’ll transfer on to let the backyard have another side that’s going to shine.

Margaret: Proper. So one other type of enhancing, lots of people have heard of the Chelsea chop, the timed and named for the Chelsea Flower Present in England, as a result of in late Could, sure sorts of perennials are in the reduction of half means. And doing that, they’re bushier and perhaps they begin blooming a little bit later, however they’re fuller and so forth.

You sort of take it to an excessive up there [laughter]. You guys have gotten Chelsea chops happening. Simply inform me a little bit bit about that methodology of enhancing the photographs. [Above, hedge clippers are used on drifts deeper in the borders; pruning shears on plants closer to the paths.]

Richard: Properly, I believe it primarily comes from the side like we’ve so many vegetation, and the gardens are so full; we don’t have the power to stake something. Asters within the tall grass prairie like Chelsea Grasslands [part of the High Line] will do O.Ok. with only one chop the place we’ll hit them just about in late Could, early June, proper across the Chelsea Flower Present. However we’ve I believe it’s Aster October Skies which can be peppered all through the Gansevoort Woodlands of the Birch Woodlands down right here on the south finish of the park.

As a result of they’re in additional shade and so they can get floppy, I believe John [Gunderson] cuts these two or 3 times. So now I believe they did them in late Could, once more in June, after which he’ll do one other reduce most likely in mid-July. They usually’ll bloom later, however they’ll even be lovely, bushy, simply most likely 12 to 18 inches tall relatively than the 30 or 36 inches that they might flop over in the event that they have been left to their very own gadgets. We do this loads with vegetation. I believe Nepeta, some Monarda have been finished often.

Margaret: I guess goldenrods too.

Richard: Solidago, and a number of the Coreopsis, too, I believe, we hit.

Margaret: Once more, it offers you, with out staking or something like that, which might simply be unattainable, it offers you a bushier plant, which is nice and wanted. In any other case you may have loads of floppy issues, particularly as you level out within the shady areas. You will have loads of that happening. And I think about that you just do some thinning additionally, as a result of you’ve gotten loads of wind, don’t you?

Richard: My gosh, sure. The truth is, it was fairly windy this morning, and wonderful wind as a result of it was low-humidity wind for a change. However I do know that on a number of the Joe-Pye weeds, as an example, which might get relatively dense and tall, these could be very affected. We do it additionally with Baptisia, the false indigos.

Margaret: Certain.

Richard: So there are a number of the bigger flowering perennials that actually should be within the windier spots do should be thinned out in order that they don’t create an excessive amount of sail.

And naturally, we do this with all of our timber as nicely. We preserve the entire birch timber and the oaks and every little thing fairly nicely laced out to ensure that we’re getting loads of good dappled mild on the understory, as a result of we’re recognized for having this advanced tree cover, flowering spring timber, perhaps the Amelanchier or the redbuds, after which the groundcover layer.

And all of that coexists, and that’s what I believe makes the Excessive Line such an incredible place to go to as a result of the gardens are so intense, and you’ve got all these totally different layers. However it simply takes loads of administration to ensure every little thing stays pleased.

Margaret: Proper, proper. Yeah, it’s loads. [Laughter.] It’s positively, positively loads. However you have been simply speaking about pruning basically the timber. And the truth that what all of us confront, talking of issues that change in a backyard, regardless of whether or not we’re managing it naturalistically or not, is normally much less mild, as a result of our timber and shrubs develop as we’re there for longer. And so generally there’s the arduous resolution to even take away a woody plant, as a result of it’s surviving on the expense of, as you’re mentioning, just like the groundcover layer or no matter.

There’s simply not the sunshine that there was, and every little thing else is struggling. That’s a extremely difficult one. However once more, it doesn’t matter what your type or your design aesthetic, that’s one which gardeners face who keep put for a very long time and making shrubs develop, proper?

Richard: Sure. And it’s not a light-weight resolution that we make to skinny timber out. However I believe folks have been stunned how nicely timber really did on the Excessive Line. I don’t assume they anticipated them to get fairly so tall and fairly so full. So it’s simpler to say it’s simply getting too crowded on this house. The best factor to do, relatively than attempt to manipulate each single tree into being simply the correct amount of open, we are able to selectively take out a tree right here or there and open issues up. And it appears extra pure, frankly.

You possibly can take into consideration getting that subsequent succession, these youthful timber rising in your woodland, so it feels a little bit bit extra pure, and you then’re planning for succession. As a result of if all of the timber are 20 years outdated, all of the timber are probably going to fail on the similar time. So now we’re occupied with getting some smaller timber on this fall. So we’ve this totally different age degree.

And in areas just like the Flyover, which is the world folks could also be acquainted with with the elevated walkway, there we’re frankly getting fairly a little bit of receding. Properly, the sassafras come up in all places, however the magnolias, the big-leaf magnolias are self-seeding. A number of the sweetbay magnolias are additionally self-seeding. So we’re leaving these and we get to pick out out. And even in our bur oak grove, we’ve some seedlings that we’re going to depart, so we’ll have totally different ages. And so it simply is creating that, occupied with what will achieve success in 5 or 10 years. It’s simply planning forward.

Margaret: I simply wished to ask an adjunct to one of many issues we have been speaking about earlier than with self-sowns. Even ones which can be spec’d within the plan and the design, even ones that you just love. I believe John, who you referred to earlier than, John Gunderson, one among your senior gardeners, he has loads of Virginia bluebells, Mertensia virginica, in his space [above]. And there could be an excessive amount of of a very good factor, proper? It may possibly self-sow an excessive amount of and deform the look. So generally you’re taking out issues which can be fascinating however not in extra. Is that one other mandate?

Richard: Sure, precisely. The Mertensia is among the conditions the place it’s nice the place we’ve it and it appears so pure the way in which it happens in these massive drifts that go throughout the pathway, however John does do some seedhead chopping. After which in fact, it does want a cleanup within the spring as a result of the leaves as they’re fading again don’t look so nice. Typically Piet’s actually good about… If he’s utilizing ephemerals and bulbs and issues like that, he’ll have a plant that can be rising as much as cover the leaves which can be yellowing.

He’s fairly good about that mixture. I do know, as an example, we’ve fairly a little bit of Chasmanthium, the Northern sea oats, and we’ve observed that reseeds fairly a bit. As a lot as we’re the backyard that it is best to come to sea as a result of we’ve these lovely seeds within the winter, we do selectively cut back a number of the seeds simply so we don’t find yourself with too many vegetation.

Margaret: Precisely. It’s powerful, and particularly on newer gardeners, it’s powerful as a result of nobody desires to eliminate something, or compost something, or throw something away, so to talk. And it’s powerful. It’s a troublesome resolution. Properly, the Excessive Line, I believe your gardeners informed me that greatest instances to go to are between 7:00 and 9:00 AM. [Visiting information.]

Richard: Oh my gosh, we do get very crowded as a result of we’re very talked-about and that’s nice. But when folks actually need to have an expertise, come between 7:00 and 9:00 AM, and even within the evenings, we’re open within the evenings within the summertime. That’s beautiful. We’re open till 10:00 PM.

Margaret: Wow!

Richard: And it’s an attention-grabbing expertise at evening. All of the vegetation are low-lit, so you may expertise the… However actually the morning is when it’s magic.

Margaret: Properly, Richard Hayden, thanks for making time. I do know you bought to get down there to 18th Avenue and go determine that planting format earlier than it will get away from you.

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MY WEEKLY public-radio present, rated a “top-5 backyard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper within the UK, started its fifteenth 12 months in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station within the nation. Pay attention regionally within the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Japanese, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the July 8, 2024 present utilizing the participant close to the highest of this transcript. You possibly can subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts right here).